Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

Men's rights activism.

The wish of the male to be validated by being in a woman's single sex spaces is more important to you than the displaced religious minority female.

She doesn't have to accept a perceived 'identity'. She would have to accept that person's 'sex'. As in their sexed body that fits the description of the sex class that body belongs too.

The EA2010 allows for discrimination.

As for what safeguards can be put in place, the only thing that would have protected me was a total change in the attitudes and behaviours of the cis male perpetrators. That's how you stop sexual assault. Overhauling social attitudes. Not policing bathroom use.

When you say 'overhauling social attitudes', I see you asking women to put the validation of males who identify as trans women above our own needs and safety.

Tell me what is in this for women?

No. I was an illegal immigrant in one country, and did voluntary work supporting illegal immigrants in others.

@PP82

If she won't accept the trans woman's female identity, that's her choice

Fundamentally, when it comes down to it, you believe the feelings of a natal male should always be prioritised over those of a natal female.

You've shown it time and time again on this thread.

And as I pointed out, you haven't reciprocated any of the sympathy or empathy posters have shown for your trauma.

So much for kindness. It's just for the natal men it seems.

It's got nothing to do with trans women. I'm talking about changing the attitudes of cis gendered men. Their entitlement and misogyny.

You claiming that trans people or their allies, myself included, hold these attitudes is irrelevant. We are talking about the misogyny and entitlement that leads to the vast majority of actual sexual assault. Not theoretical incidents.

Maybe the transwoman should accept the fact that they are male?

Oh, and the work supporting undocumented migrants came first.

They know what gender they are better than you do.

I'd be interested in what you think are the causes of the attitudes of 'cis gendered' men, and why transwomen don't have these attitudes

Gender is a load of wank.

It's goy nothing to do with trans women. I'm talking about changing the attitudes of cis gendered men. Their entitlement and misogyny.

What is the difference between a trans woman and a 'cis gendered' man?

Why don't you think that trans women, being men, in demanding that they can access spaces that are should be singled sex, are exercising misogyny? They are literally saying to women that they don't care about our needs and that their desire to be validated as women comes first. I think that IS misogyny.

Because I think you're splitting hairs here.

I was referring to their sex, which is the basis of the criteria used to separate some spaces and services. Anything on why transwomen deserve services just for them, but biological women don't? Or would you remove trans-specialist rape support services too?

Because the entitlement comes from the power and privilege inherent in being a cis man. Trans women do not have that power and privilege, due to the transphobic nature of our society.

This is really basic stuff.

I think no one's access to any rape support service should be policed or denied.

Trans women, in making their demands, are absolutely using the power and privilege that comes from being Men, and you are falling for it!

Trans rights are MENs rights activism.

When women say we need single sex spaces for our safety and dignity you are saying that we can't have that and that we should put this category of men before our own needs.

You think these 'transwomen' the ones who are men should be treated better than women.

No. You acknowledged that they were male.

"gender" is a belief. They are a sub-group of male humans. Nothing more.

Male and female are sex terms.
Masculine and feminine (meaning having attributes commonly assigned to the male and female sexes) are gender terms.

This "transphobic nature or our society"-I don't suppose that would consist entirely of most people not believing that men who say they are women are, in fact, women. Anything other than that?

Been asked time and time again.

Nothing.

I suspect it is because this poster recognises there is a disconnect in the logic that they believe and are trying shame others into accepting. Because if they cannot answer these questions, and continuously has tried distraction for pages and pages, it starts to show to readers that they also don't really believe it. It is ideological only and I think they know it.

I thought you were all about the protection of beliefs?

That doesn't really answer the question tbh? Transwomen can access rape support services that are exclusively for transpeople, in your terms they are 'cis-exclusive'. You seem concerned that services for biological women would be 'trans exclusive'. Have I got that wrong? Or are you happy that some services are exclusively for transpeople, but unhappy that some services are exclusively for cis people?

As an example of why this isn't a constructive way to view the situation, let's take a scenario of a Muslim woman who wears hijab.

She may accept that someone wants to 'present socially' as female, she may accept a person's pronoun preferences, etc, BUT when it comes to the faith-based principles underlying hijab, those aren't based on how someone presents socially. The vast majority of Islamic scholars are clear that those principles are based on biological sex.

@PP82 posted that a transwoman is, in their opinion, biologically a man (although socially female...?). That biology is important. In this situation, it's not a case of simply accepting or rejecting someone's self-selected identity. To understand the biological reality, and to choose to disregard it, would be to go against something key to that Muslim woman's faith and identity.

No. It could be argued that they lack the degree of power and privilege that a male who does not have a trans identity has. However, these male people have not had their power and privilege negated by transition.

They have almost ALL had the benefit of being born male in a world where female people suffer from negative sexist discrimination from birth. Actually, female negative sexist discrimination from conception.

Again, I seem to be on repeat. You don't seem to understand what you are talking about. You certainly do not understand discrimination. And you believe a lie about the degree of 'oppression' that this group of male people face.