Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I just answered the question OP asked. If facilities are segregated, trans people should be able to use the facility that matches their gender identity. Ideally, in my view, they would not be segregated. But the OP asked a question and I gave my view.

<Shrug>

If a woman consents herself to share mixed sex spaces and is perfectly happy about it, she's consented to a third space. Good for her. Her body, her choice.

She is not entitled, and nor is anyone else, to try to compel other women to abandon their needs, feelings, boundaries and identities to pander to men's. Nor to force women into two groups: those who can continue to be part of society and those who have been forced out.

Again to pander to men's feelings and wishes and identities, while their own don't matter. The binary sexism is hard to miss. Nor is the core belief that trans people matter and no one else does. Both are very common to this activism.

“Secondly, I don't think women's spaces should exist. All spaces and facilities should be gender neutral.“

@PP82, in the light of the below, do you still think this? If so, can you explain why?

“Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total.“

(2 Sept 2018; https://www.thetimes.co.uk › article
Unisex changing rooms put women in danger - The Times)

I think PP answered this above, in explaining that they have been 'raped and sexually assaulted more times than they can count' (I think that was the wording) and they don't mind risking another one, so no other woman has a right to mind either.

It's an interesting POV but the poster is free to put their boundaries wherever they wish. Other people's boundaries are likely to considerably vary.

Properly mental. Have these “abolish sex” types ever actually lived in the real world?

I spent 15 years getting leered and perved at by men as a young conventionally attractive woman. You really want teen girls and young women to have to get undressed with these creeps? Are you actually insane?

“Secondly, I don't think women's spaces should exist. All spaces and facilities should be gender neutral.“

But why?? What is the possible benefit of this that outweighs the damage done to women?

That's what I can't understand. Please reply when you're able, @PP82. I'll be checking in sporadically (busy day).

@PP82

Secondly, I don't think women's spaces should exist. All spaces and facilities should be gender neutral.

So you believe it's right that women who have previously women's rape crisis centres and groups to be life saving when it comes to their mental health recovery should actually have to share spaces with men? Not even just trans women, but all men who wish to be there?

You would genuinely tell a fellow survivor of sexual assault and abuse who has found those single sex services to be a life changing, life saving haven, than it is right and fair for those single sex services to be made open to men too?

A cis man is much more likely to be a risk.

No. There is literally no difference other than a self declaration of being "a woman". What do you think is the magic process which renders that man safer for women?

I heard it in Pinhead’s voice.

We may be used to men ignoring women’s needs but it’s depressing when women are incapable of the imagination, sensitivity or wit to put themselves in the shoes of another woman who might have a different attitude. Such as a woman who’s been sexually assaulted. Instead, they plow on universalising the personal forgetting that a politician is there to represent all their constituents.

At the same time, and unfortunately as a victim of several assaults myself (all before I was 16) I'm glad there are segregated safe spaces for me and my daughter and other woman and girls as I still feel safer.

Thankfully decisions like this take into account the safety and boundaries of all women.

This

honestly hope it works for you PP82 💐

(and then enroll them in a really good school with a really good biology teacher)

That was an awful lot of flubber to take us back to 'well men will do it anyway so why bother'?

Well if you don't go home with a baby you get your money back

oh love 😔

That was evident a while back. I wouldn’t bother engaging. It’s a waste of our most precious resource - time!

Good thing sex is irrelevant. Biology, biology, biology yawn. It's 2024. We've found ways around the limitations of our biology in all sorts of ways.

By using the biology of someone else to get what I want. Funny how sex and biology is entirely relevant then.

What about the sad fact that proportionally more tw are a danger than other men?
What about the fact that those who want access will do anything to get it? It is why the church and scouts have a higher proportion of offenders than the wider population, not saying priests or tw are offenders but that people who wish to offend take advantage of the special status either gives them to get close to victims.
The real issue is you can't tell. It's really really difficult to know who genuinely believes in Catholicism/ gender and who is taking advantage. Its the reason teachers and scouts and prison officers and girl guide leaders have to be dbs checked.

And now there is a thread advocating for men to stay over in maternity wards. We have nothing left just for women anymore if this happens.

I had my first experience of a trans woman in the toilet with me. I was alone. They were already in the toilet. They waited until I went into the cubical and then went at the exact same time. Weirdly it seemed like they were getting off on it. Then they timed coming out to wash their hands at the exact same time. I felt genuinely frightened. Whether it was all a terrible misunderstanding on my part or a real threat, I don't think I should have to feel scared going to the toilet.

Reading that thread, it is yet more 'but I want it and I'm all right, so I don't care what happens to any other woman'. Which is shameful. Fuck all the sentimental meme 'kind' bullshit that is mostly about lovely fluffy feelz and zero brain engagement, let's get back to expecting the mark of good people in society being that they actually care about others beyond themselves. And can handle visualising and being compassionate towards experiences they haven't themselves had - equally. Even the ones happening to people who aren't their mates and their tribe, which is where TQ+ politically fucks up. And require everyone to matter equally.

The answer, as usual, is third spaces. One for women who consent to men while they bleed and breast feed and some men being fabulous while others are total arses and a few are actively dangerous - and one for the women who do not consent and need a male-free space.

I would have walked out. I just cannot fucking stand this shite of men being allowed into a womans private space because they want to wear a skirt.

Statistics and how they are interpreted are very important.

For example, this graph says 56% of frozen embryos result in a live pregnancy. However is this a few women in their twenties/early thirties having multiple attempts? The numbers are so small (at University it really wasn’t even considered you could reach any conclusion if the numbers were below 30) that there can be no conclusion about the success rate of someone in their forties as it is not clear any recipients are in their forties. Also remember this graph is late on it the process as the starting point is an embryo. There are lots of hurdles to get through before a viable embryo.

Statisically, using data from the census and the prison service, transwomen commit sexual crimes against women at much higher rates than men who call themselves men. But it could be said that men have all sorts of reasons to call themselves transwomen in prison and it is logical to decide that prisoners lie. On this basis, transwomen at least commit sexual crimes against women at the same rates as men who call themselves men. Hence the need for single sex spaces.

It is illogical for any poster to be basing her/his opinions of how society is run on n=1.

There is more than a whiff of it happened to me so it should happen to you and I care not if it does emanating from this poster.

Other people's boundaries are likely to considerably vary.

Said poster does not accept other people are entitled to have boundaries and does not believe they should be respected.