Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

The problem is that it (supporting TWAW) isn't about logic or what the statistics show, it's about ideology and imposing that ideology on others, whether they agree or not.

Yep

This is normal where I live. What woman wants to be left alone when she's just had a baby? I used to work on a maternity unit in the UK and men couldn't stay but I'm pretty sure that was due to lack of space, rather than anyone objecting in principle.

There have been threads about men on maternity wards since MN was MN I think.

Lots of women have a problem with this. Have done since it even became a thing that happens.

There are plenty of problems with it - pretty well documented ones. Not just lack of space.

The only actual reason the NHS started letting men stay on the wards was as a sticking plaster for their lack of staff to adequately care for postpartum women
and newborns.

Where do you live, @PP82 ?

Hey, @PP82. Glad you’re back. Could you let me know your thoughts on my post at 8.47am? Long day travelling cross-country, so may be a while before I see any reply, but a lot of posters seemed interested.

Single sex spaces manifestly do not protect women, and you do not get to exclude others from public spaces because they make you feel uncomfortable. That's your problem.

I'm an immigrant in a small rural town with little diversity. Some of the old folk object to us living here. Should I move because it makes them uncomfortable to share their neighbourhood with a foreigner? I'm sure they would say our very presence was undermining their traditional community, and that that was a legitimate concern.

(Must add that many people are very kind and welcoming.)

The link doesn't work, but I generally wouldn't trust the Sunday Times as a source. Do you have a working link to a credible source?

Spain. We have gender self ID here too.

Single sex spaces allow for problem men to be removed; whereas making them mixed sex facilitates an increase of complaints such as voyeurism and assaults, while muddying the waters about who can complain and when.

Single sex spaces manifestly do not protect women, and you do not get to exclude others from public spaces because they make you feel uncomfortable. That's your problem.

You are wrong. The surveys and statistics and court cases prove you wrong. It’s everyone’s problem if single sex spaces become mixed sex spaces.

@PP82 Sorry, I should have been more specific: which country are you in? Your post upthread makes it sound as if you once lived in the UK but no longer do so.

I’m also interested in how you square having worked in a maternity unit in the UK with your dismissal of people who believe in biological sex. How do you reconcile this?

Spain. Sorry - just seen this.

Interesting.

@PP82, if inclusion of people with XY chromosomes is very important to you, what about the inclusion of people with XX chromosomes, who would be excluded by the lack of available single sex spaces?

There are many people who, for a range of reasons would be unable to use non-single-sex spaces. Should those people be excluded in order to include anyone with XY chromosomes? And if so, what's your rationale for that?

@PP82 The data in the Times link is taken from FOI requests. It was not made up to sell newspapers.

''Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total.''
''At least two-thirds of all sex incidents in public pools and leisure centres, whether inside or in the grounds, happen in unisex changing areas. Only a handful occur in single-sex changing rooms, the figures, released under freedom of information (FoI) laws, show.''

The design and set up of Spanish hospitals is entirely different to that of UK hospitals, something I would have thought you would know what with having experience of both. Hmm.

Interesting how?

I'm from the UK but now live in Spain. Have lived long term in other countries too. Not a fan of the UK and will never return. Very happy that we've just about hung on to our progressive government in Spain while the rest of Europe succumbs to the populist right.

In Spain, from everything I've been told, they don't really expect to look after you at all on the maternity unit. That's the job of your partner and family. They just monitor you. And partners have a sofa bed to stay overnight.

Single sex spaces manifestly do not protect women, and you do not get to exclude others from public spaces because they make you feel uncomfortable. That's your problem.

Another one who doesn't have a clue about safeguarding.

It a little bit more that feeling uncomfortable but you know that and dismiss it for reasons known only to you.

Do you still work in a hospital setting or even a maternity unit in Spain? If so - and given what you say about Spain having self ID and given your clear belief in the importance of “gender identity” over biological reality - how do people in Spain talk about pregnancy and childbirth? More specifically: when we in the UK or other English-speaking countries say things such as: “I’ve just had a scan - I’m having a girl!” Or “So-and-so had a boy yesterday”, what do people in Spain now say? Have they abandoned biological terms such as boy / girl for ones that align with the introduction of self ID?

I’m genuinely interested. If you speak Spanish, I would love to know how they say these things. Thanks!

I've worked in a UK maternity unit but never been in a Spanish one, as I have not yet had a baby. I'm going by what I've read and what I've been told by friends and colleagues.

In Spain, from everything I've been told, they don't really expect to look after you at all on the maternity unit. That's the job of your partner and family. They just monitor you. And partners have a sofa bed to stay overnight.

From everything you've been told, right ho.

@PP82, I’m not sure what you mean by your post above. If by “manifestly fail to protect women“, you mean that single sex spaces can’t actually prevent all assaults, then I think this is, regrettably, fairly obvious!

What we’re interested in is why you’re arguing again something that does the next best thing: massively reduces the risk & occurrence of such assaults.

For example. You may have found some stats proving the contrary that we’ve not seen. Or you may have a new argument for mixed sex spaces that outweighs the data showing their negatives - how much more dangerous these are for women & girls?

Or you may agree with me, that there’s no way of responding directly to my post & still upholding the total removal of women’s & girls‘ legal right to single sex spaces. In which case, please acknowledge this!

At horrible risk of sounding patronising… If there’s anything braver in online debate than taking on a majority who disagree with you, as you have here, it’s 1) doing so directly (no evasion / logical fallacy eg. single sex spaces can’t prevent all assaults, so are valueless, as implied above) or 2) acknowledging something new that may shift your thinking. It’s genuinely hard - I’m not fab at it, & not too resilient in it!

I’m not going to ask for a direct response to 8.47 again now, as I have to run & it sounds as though you’ve a huge amount on at the moment - it’s of course up to you whether you respond any further. Also - heck - nine new posts since starting typing, painfully, on my phone, so apologies if the above is now totally out-of-date!

Best of luck with everything to you.

I don't work in any healthcare related field any more. The gender self id is quite new here, and of course people still use gendered language.

My limited experience, based only on the people I know in a conservative, rural part of the country, is that all the women I know here are pretty progressive and in favour of the new law, and that the people who have been anti have all been men, who are also quite generally right wing, anti immigrant etc. (Though they don't include us in that because we are white. Though as previously stated some of the old folk don't like our presence.)

That's just my limited personal experience though.

I reiterate - the design and set up of Spanish hospitals is entirely different from UK hospitals in ALL areas not just maternity.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Spanish hospitals allow for women to have their own separate rooms post-delivery.

As you know, @PP82 , here in the UK women are on a ward with at least one if not three or several other women once their babies have been born. There’s no privacy, or opportunity to rest or sleep. If a midwife wants to check your stitches or feel your abdomen or help you position your newborn on your nipple, not only can everyone around you listen in to this but also see, if your curtains haven’t been drawn properly. There’s absolutely no privacy at all at this very exhausting, overwhelming time.

Does this give you one insight into the many reasons why women in the UK are unhappy at the idea of male partners sleeping in the post-natal ward?