Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

[fromorbit]

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

@AdamRyan What are you talking about, in your final paragraph? Read the post above as an example of many in which posters here lament the black and white perspective that you’re accusing RedToothbrush of having!

(edited for typo)

There is no world where lactating males replace breastfeeding women. It is not physically possible. That story is a great example of scaremongering by the media using sensationalist headlines (and incidentally came from Policy Exchange, the same think tank above).

No, the story came via Policy Exchange.

Who released an actual letter from Dr. Rachel James, the medical director of University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust, written on behalf of Chief Executive Dr. George Findley.

Policy Exchange didn't make it up. They just published it.

I haven't had to invoke Godwin's Law for a long time but there you go.

So, in you guys opinion (and not being goady, just genuinely interested), how do you think the Nazis came to power in Germany?

Lol, the answer to this is probably a dissertation length essay. One thing though, is that censorship of Nazi activism featured quite heavily and it didn’t work.

If you want an answer to that look to the left and their silencing and cancelling those who disagree with gender ideology. Look at the rise of anti semitism in the left. I'm watching with horror.

I've never actually watched GB news before. I might start. What is the quote about reading the books that people don't want you to?

Bunbury was going to ask if musicals would be far behind. Let me be the first person to mention Springtime for Hitler on this thread.

I'm going to mention the usual book about preference falsification: Private Truths, Public Lies: The Social Consequences of Preference Falsification. There are more extracts on FWR that cover the fall of the Berlin Wall etc.

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

And this thoughtful piece:

https://hxstem.substack.com/p/from-russia-with-love-science-and

Free Speech Nation is quite an enjoyable place to start.

As this appears to have turned into a shaming session then I will speak up and say that I watch GB News sometimes, yes I do, because I never again want to wake up as I did on 24th June 2016, thinking, 'What the fucking fuck just happened?'

They (presumably given who similar all the reporting is) wrote a press release with a misleading headline.
The letter doesn't say what the headline does. She didn't say lactating males produce milk that's "just as good".

Plenty of males have fantasies that they can somehow "grow" female biology. That doesn't make it possible and I would have thought this board would know that better than anyone.

This particular story to me is a very stark example of how the board has changed. Years ago, there would be a scientific analysis of what's incorrect about the letter, why its a problem, what it says about the trans movement.

Now, it's mostly extrapolation about "capture", that mothers are going to be replaced and loads of children are going to be harmed.

The second version chimes very much with the conspiracy theory guidance upthread.

Sometimes it's wonderful to see how women on MN are well read and educated and just how much it goes against the stereotype of stupid women with prams who just follow the crowd and are incapable of free thought and being exposed to 'bad ideas'.

Ooh, gosh, women/feminism/FWR ain't what they used to be.

Some contributors just like to stir things up, and fling insults peppered with mistruths and nonsense, it's true. I find using the board is far improved if one just ignores these posters.

OK, so no answer to the question, just more criticism of me for asking it, while simultaneously claiming that I'm the one criticising wrong think and not engaging in debate.

This particular story to me is a very stark example of how the board has changed. Years ago, there would be a scientific analysis of what's incorrect about the letter, why its a problem, what it says about the trans movement.

Milli Hill did a good piece about the incorrect claims made in the letter and on the BBC’s coverage. I assumed most women on here will have read it. Has it not been shared?

https://millihill.substack.com/p/dear-bbc-youve-got-your-facts-wrong

Yes, it's been shared a few times.

Doesn't hurt to share it again.

Do you know what flo I was generally quieter in the Brexit debate because I trusted that people were intelligent and wouldn't fall for the "Project Fear" /controlled by an elite projection from Brexiteers.
Turned out I was wrong and turns our 8 years later that "Project Fear" was very much Project Fact.

I'm not going to be cowed into staying quiet about the kind of extremist rhetoric that Marshall/GB news push just because you say it makes people feel stupid and thats how come we got Brexit. We got Brexit because certain politicians lied, knew they were lying and continued to lie in the face of facts, which confused everyone so they had to rely on their instincts. The same is happening to the country now and I hate it.

If just one lurker reads this and starts fact checking what they read/watch as a result it is worth it.

Yes, that was a good piece and a nice antidote to some of the crazy extrapolation being made

And yet, here you are.

A polite reminder that I'm not interested in engaging with you. There is still plenty of room for both of us on a thread such as this but it would be nice if you could remember and respect that.

Unfortunately no, I don't remember, I don't keep track of all the posters on mumsnet. I also reply to who and what I want. Maybe don't engage in debates I'm involved in if you are that bothered because I'm still unlikely to remember.

"This particular story to me is a very stark example of how the board has changed. Years ago, there would be a scientific analysis of what's incorrect about the letter, why its a problem, what it says about the trans movement".

There's a mass of scientific analysis debunking the claims from that NHS trust on this thread?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5010993-trans-women-feeding-chemical-ridden-milk-to-babies-approved-by-nhs

And on this one:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5010461-human-milk-ffs

That's the great thing about this board - women don't just accept it when the BBC for example find an outlier to agree with the senior medic at an NHS trust that male secretions are equal to women's breat milk. The matter is researched and evidenced - as can be seen from a quick scan of either of these threads.

Hope that helps?

If just one lurker reads this and starts fact checking what they read/watch as a result it is worth it.

You mean, like that time I read one of your links, and ended up checking Hansard for the term "woke archaeology", only to find that the minister concerned had never used those words at all?

Like that, yes?

P.S. I see absolutely no reason why women on a parenting forum should be required to be dispassionate about infant nutrition. It's mindboggling that we're being criticised for this.

The lesson I learnt from Brexit was not to ignore what people said, find out why they are saying it and don't call them stupid. The effect of not engaging and trying to shut down conversations was to entrench and increase division, rather than persuade anyone of anything with the use of facts. A much softer touch which didn't alienate usually helped engagement.

I have experience of standing in a street with an ardent brexiter shouting and pointing his finger at me. An hour later we'd put the world to rights, found areas we very much agreed on and shook hands with respect.

THAT is what we need. Not being told you are listening to the wrong TV channel and the other side is evil.

If you haven't learnt this lesson from Brexit, youve missed the opportunity.

Brexit isn't working because of the wall of reality. However we also have some stark issues that aren't going away that lots of people were keen to shove under the carpet. Immigration isn't getting 'solved' nor will it. And over in Europe it's still clear there is a need for reform in agriculture / protection against supermarkets driving prices to unsustainable levels. And this is only going to get worse with climate issues. British farmers overwhelming voted for Brexit because of issues with red tape in agriculture but as Jeremy Clarkson (of all people!) demonstrates those structural issues remain even though we are free from Europe. They weren't wrong about a lot of things but they weren't right about the solution being Brexit - THAT is the issue.

Snake oil and quick fix solutions come from more than one direction.

Lesson one of the internet.

It's not all about you.

There is more than one audience.