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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

805 replies

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 21:09

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 09:46

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 09:42

Lesson one of the internet.

It's not all about you.

There is more than one audience.

Please stop being rude and unpleasant. It's not necessary. FWR doesn't need a head girl.

Yet again, it's very striking how any mention that there might be an agenda to some of these think tanks and media sources brings a load of personal attacks and "scolding" out of the woodwork. Very interesting indeed.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 09:47

Also, you have to recognise there are certain people you will NEVER persuade differently about something, because they are so entrenched.

It's other people who are undecided, don't fully understand a subject or are soft believers in the 'other side' who are the ones who are worth your attention.

ArabellaScott · 27/02/2024 09:51

We all have many demands on our time. It's worth considering whether someone is repeatedly posting misinformation and making provocative attacks on others what their motivations are.

If a poster is repeatedly posting in bad faith, I find it's not worth expending time or energy engaging.

People post for many reasons, most of them an effort to discuss, but some post only to get a reaction.

Rainbowshit · 27/02/2024 09:52

The lesson from Brexit is that you can scream bigot at people with genuine concerns until they remain silent. You haven't however actually changed their minds. And when the opportunity comes they will make their views known and you will be blindsided because you thought you'd stamped down all dissent.

DrBlackbird · 27/02/2024 09:52

Hospital Trust claims drug induced ‘lactation’ in trans-identifying males produces the equivalent of women’s breast milk

This Policy Exchange headline makes no mention of lactating males replacing breast feeding women, it’s not scare mongering, and not even particularly sensationalistic ie the headline reproduces what is said in the letter written by Dr Rachel James, the Medical Director for the Trust. The headline is simply a faithful summary of what Dr James says in her letter… In her letter, Dr James talks about ‘comparable’ human milk. Comparable and equivalent are synonyms… so the only sensationalism is in the eyes of the beholder.

Perhaps one might argue that it’s very reporting is sensationalist, but if that’s the case, then that complaint can be made against the TW posting a SM image of them ‘chest feeding’ a baby, not the Policy Exchange surely.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/02/2024 09:55

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 09:47

Also, you have to recognise there are certain people you will NEVER persuade differently about something, because they are so entrenched.

It's other people who are undecided, don't fully understand a subject or are soft believers in the 'other side' who are the ones who are worth your attention.

Such an interesting point. It's telling how many new posters state that they've lurked on here for years before finding their voice and posting. And there are so many really knowledgeable women and men posting on here that many threads are a real education (for me at any rate)

DrBlackbird · 27/02/2024 10:03

I would add that whilst in some cases it is useful to point out how underlying agendas are often not made explicit, the FWR board is the one place I’m confident that this is well understood and doesn’t need explaining 😉

Boiledbeetle · 27/02/2024 10:04

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 09:46

Please stop being rude and unpleasant. It's not necessary. FWR doesn't need a head girl.

Yet again, it's very striking how any mention that there might be an agenda to some of these think tanks and media sources brings a load of personal attacks and "scolding" out of the woodwork. Very interesting indeed.

Have you ever actually read back your own posts, you do a fair bit of scolding and putting down of posters yourself

For example, did you stop to think how:

" Plenty of males have fantasies that they can somehow "grow" female biology. That doesn't make it possible and I would have thought this board would know that better than anyone. "

might be perceived by some of the posters on here?

Maybe have a think about how your posts come across first if you are going to be so indignant about other people's posts.

Kucinghitam · 27/02/2024 10:08

The thing to remember is that there are Good People and they can do/say anything, because it is justified to progress the cause of Goodness. And there are Bad People, and everything they do/say is Tainted and Wrong.

Helleofabore · 27/02/2024 10:12

borntobequiet · 27/02/2024 06:52

My father read the Daily Telegraph. Working class and ex-wartime Navy, he was a committed Labour voter until the 1970s, when he drifted rightwards, unhappy with the power and reach of the trades unions. I disagreed with him, but in his paper I one day read a letter from a regular reader, who said that he took the Telegraph because his tutor at University had advised him to not only read a newspaper that would reinforce his own existing views. I thought that was good advice and have kept to it myself since.

I find people who read only media which is considered suitable by a group of people policing media consumption to have siloed thinking and perhaps have prejudiced views they consider ‘reasoned’ but are not really. I am like that letter writer. I will read whatever I see on a topic and judge for myself.

I also find that blanket statements about the politics of mainstream media agencies to be meaningless. Because what of it? Even in political parties there are differences around some topics.

OldCrone · 27/02/2024 10:16

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 08:25

There is no world where lactating males replace breastfeeding women. It is not physically possible. That story is a great example of scaremongering by the media using sensationalist headlines (and incidentally came from Policy Exchange, the same think tank above).

It's a great example of what I'm talking about. Are people who believe it stupid or bigots? No. Are the media who are reporting it evil? No, just cynical. And is the source (policy exchange) evil? I doubt it, but it is non-transparent and has an agenda.

If you can't deal with an opposing view without resorting to black and white, good vs evil, then as my kids say, that's a you problem. But stop projecting your defensiveness on to me.

And is the source (policy exchange) evil? I doubt it, but it is non-transparent and has an agenda.

You keep talking about 'non-transparency' of think tanks such as Policy Exchange. What do you think is the significance of lack of transparency about funding?

Political organisations obviously have a bias and an agenda. Were you expecting them all to be impartial? We can all read the reports and check the references and decide whether we agree with the conclusions.

It doesn't seem to be located in Tufton Street either.

If you can't deal with an opposing view without resorting to black and white, good vs evil, then as my kids say, that's a you problem.

What were you saying about GB News again?

lifeturnsonadime · 27/02/2024 10:19

So what was it that Sunak said on GB news that was actually wrong?????

I mean Adam you're really mind blowingly boring on here you know?

You're trying to deflect on the basis that you don't like the source.

You're trying to suggest that we are not as intelligent as you and don't understand that all media is biased.

Can we just get back to what was said please? What did he say which was wrong? Because 20 plus pages of this thread are on criticism of media bias Which is deliberate deflection.

RMW must be rubbing their hands with glee at Adam doing the TRAs work for them, even if unintentional.

Helleofabore · 27/02/2024 10:24

Chersfrozenface · 27/02/2024 08:35

There is no world where lactating males replace breastfeeding women. It is not physically possible. That story is a great example of scaremongering by the media using sensationalist headlines (and incidentally came from Policy Exchange, the same think tank above).

No, the story came via Policy Exchange.

Who released an actual letter from Dr. Rachel James, the medical director of University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust, written on behalf of Chief Executive Dr. George Findley.

Policy Exchange didn't make it up. They just published it.

But Cher, the Policy Exchange are just wrong on everything and just evil… because.

That is what I got from my last discussion. There was no engagement with the content that Policy Exchange produce just the blanket belief that it is all bad!

Floisme · 27/02/2024 10:25

Maybe don't engage in debates I'm involved in if you are that bothered because I'm still unlikely to remember.
NoI am not going to avoid a discussion just because you're taking part - I have no intention of censoring myself in such a way. But I do not tag or quote you or address you in any way. If you don't mind the board seeing that you can't be bothered even trying to comply with a polite request then that's on you.

I hope that clarifies matters to your satisfaction and now, good day.

borntobequiet · 27/02/2024 10:31

The letter doesn't say what the headline does. She didn't say lactating males produce milk that's "just as good".

She talks about “human milk” and thus draws a false equivalence between lactating females and males. So it’s very heavily implied.

borntobequiet · 27/02/2024 10:35

FWR doesn't need a head girl.

Ooh, bitchy! Love it.

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:37

The only time I've seen the word "bigot" used on this thread is by people claiming that's what others are saying.
Make your argument without putting words in people's mouths. Noone has called anyone a bigot here and I certainly don't think any posters here or any of the media outlets are driven by bigotry.

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:39

Kucinghitam · 27/02/2024 10:08

The thing to remember is that there are Good People and they can do/say anything, because it is justified to progress the cause of Goodness. And there are Bad People, and everything they do/say is Tainted and Wrong.

Your life must be pretty boring if you divide everyone up into good/bad, wrong/right.

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:45

OldCrone · 27/02/2024 10:16

And is the source (policy exchange) evil? I doubt it, but it is non-transparent and has an agenda.

You keep talking about 'non-transparency' of think tanks such as Policy Exchange. What do you think is the significance of lack of transparency about funding?

Political organisations obviously have a bias and an agenda. Were you expecting them all to be impartial? We can all read the reports and check the references and decide whether we agree with the conclusions.

It doesn't seem to be located in Tufton Street either.

If you can't deal with an opposing view without resorting to black and white, good vs evil, then as my kids say, that's a you problem.

What were you saying about GB News again?

I say they have a clear agenda and deliberately break reporting guidelines. They are effectively government propaganda in my opinion. That's not me calling them "evil".

Reporting guidelines are a bit like safeguarding rules, they exist to protect us. Arguing they are unnecessary and curtailing peoples freedoms is irresponsible (and again, clear parallels with other movements like TRAs).

ADoggyDogWorld · 27/02/2024 10:45

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:39

Your life must be pretty boring if you divide everyone up into good/bad, wrong/right.

Please stop being rude and unpleasant.

Thank you.

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:46

Helleofabore · 27/02/2024 10:24

But Cher, the Policy Exchange are just wrong on everything and just evil… because.

That is what I got from my last discussion. There was no engagement with the content that Policy Exchange produce just the blanket belief that it is all bad!

That was this thread, I'm sure Cher can scroll back and see my critique of their "research". That you never acknowledged. Why let the truth get in the way of a good story though?

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 10:54

Even the best most respected scientists fall foul of poor practice and bias. This is why we have various levels and types of review within medicine to try and identify bias and remove agendas, but even within this there are issues (the notable one being drug trials being suppressed deliberately by pharmaceutical companies because they give 'the wrong results' meaning theres a bunch of data lost before it even reaches review so the information that does go to review is already biased in some way).

With media, we should constantly review and access and not take for granted.

One of the biggest issues with shrinking numbers of journalists is the amount of time given to reviewing and assessing quality of information is shrinking at a time when the amount of column inches, broadcast time and social media post to fill has rapidly expanding.

Since we have this idea that scientific studies are good and based on evidence we therefore this issue with newspapers taking a newly published study, taking the conclusion as gospel and putting a headline out there that says "eating blue cheese gives you the death" without a) understanding the study b) even looking at the bias or problems with the study. The Mail has long been guilty of it.

The same largely happens with policy think tanks who KNOW the issue with the lack of scrutiny by the media and actively pander to this weakness.

The BBC should know better because it's a well known problem.

What I have been noticing in recent years is cuts to the BBC have meant more of this type of article and in actual fact, instead of leading the news they tend to be following what the Mail and other outlets published two days previously (and had therefore set the media agenda which the BBC then couldn't ignore). This is partly because the BBC have more facts checking to do, but in practice I am finding the BBC increasingly publishing things seen elsewhere almost verbatim so this argument is increasingly losing it's credibility.

It's so frustrating.

There isn't a single media source which isn't facing these issues - because social media has cut revenues and therefore funds for staff to review - to such a huge extent. And the quality overall has suffered due to the competition from social media.

You HAVE to be reading multiple sources and reviewing yourself and understand how to do this. NO source can be trusted in the way it was, unfortunately.

I really lament cuts to the BBC for this reason because people didn't put enough value on the process of review. It then brings the very purpose of the BBC into question because this was its value. It's a circular issue and one that's very depressing.

The internet promised to give individuals and minorities a voice they didn't have before, but that has also brought voices than drown out the worthwhile and have destroyed a lot of the purpose of the media in filtering the bullshit out before the public consume.

We now are in a bewildered state wondering how to deal with it and the proposed solution is censorship rather than better review processes. That review process is now left up to individuals and grassroots organisations.

And here we are on MN on certain subjects, doing exactly that. And being vilified for it by shouty people and righteous people of all sorts because they don't like it when you are critical in any way because criticism isnt welcome and 'bad for mental health' due to a lack of resilience. A lack of resilience comes from a culture where you learn to talk and never have to listen or filter or review critically.

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:56

lifeturnsonadime · 27/02/2024 10:19

So what was it that Sunak said on GB news that was actually wrong?????

I mean Adam you're really mind blowingly boring on here you know?

You're trying to deflect on the basis that you don't like the source.

You're trying to suggest that we are not as intelligent as you and don't understand that all media is biased.

Can we just get back to what was said please? What did he say which was wrong? Because 20 plus pages of this thread are on criticism of media bias Which is deliberate deflection.

RMW must be rubbing their hands with glee at Adam doing the TRAs work for them, even if unintentional.

My problem with Sunak being on GB News is it breaks reporting guidelines as it was political campaigning when there is a by election and there are rules against that. Kinda like safeguarding, as I said.

I don't think Rishi said anything unexpected and so have little to say about that. My issue is 1) GBnews invited him on and 2) he took part knowing the it's not OK. But he gets final sign off so can approve his own rule breaking.

We don't have a written constitution so rely on the honesty and integrity of our politicians for the democratic system to function. I don't like having prime ministers who think it's fine to subvert the system for their own ends.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 11:00

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:45

I say they have a clear agenda and deliberately break reporting guidelines. They are effectively government propaganda in my opinion. That's not me calling them "evil".

Reporting guidelines are a bit like safeguarding rules, they exist to protect us. Arguing they are unnecessary and curtailing peoples freedoms is irresponsible (and again, clear parallels with other movements like TRAs).

I've sat through a whole pile of media ethics lectures.

The hours spent debating the subject, don't point to it being anywhere near as simplistic as that.

Indeed it's completely counter to what my very respected lecture who specialised in politics and propaganda always made a point of stressing:

Who are the censors? Who regulates and mitigates the power of the censors? Is the power of censorship neutral? Can this be corrupted and abused?

It was all about the concept of gatekeeping and who decides and why this matters.

But do crack on telling us all about it seeing as you seem to have such expertise and knowledge in this area which no one else here has. It's very interesting.

In the meantime I have a drain to clean.

OldCrone · 27/02/2024 11:00

AdamRyan · 27/02/2024 10:45

I say they have a clear agenda and deliberately break reporting guidelines. They are effectively government propaganda in my opinion. That's not me calling them "evil".

Reporting guidelines are a bit like safeguarding rules, they exist to protect us. Arguing they are unnecessary and curtailing peoples freedoms is irresponsible (and again, clear parallels with other movements like TRAs).

Do you not have an answer to my Policy Exchange questions?

You keep talking about 'non-transparency' of think tanks such as Policy Exchange. What do you think is the significance of lack of transparency about funding?

Political organisations obviously have a bias and an agenda. Were you expecting them all to be impartial? We can all read the reports and check the references and decide whether we agree with the conclusions.