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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feeling really low after being honest

259 replies

Notfeelingitwasworthit · 09/02/2024 23:07

Training today. Gender identity. I was dreading it. Just keep your head down, I thought, don't say anything.
Then the subject of safe spaces came up and the presenter (they/them) said well it's actually not a problem at all, there are no statistics which show that sexual offences occur on hospital wards or in domestic abuse shelters and the other women are also really cool with it so it's not a problem at all!
I just said that this wasn't really accurate, we know women don't report sexual assaults or inappropriate behaviour, especially not if they think they're going to be labelled as transphobic, and women are constantly told to put up and shut up, so that labelled with the fear of being labelled a bigot OF COURSE won't mean they answer truthfully.
Obviously I was set upon. I tried to stand my ground but people kept going. Not just to my face but with snide comments throughout the rest of the day. I would join a room, everyone would stop talking. Even my closest contacts said 'well maybe you just shouldn't say it' and 'they do have a point'.

It just feels so lonely. It feels like you have a choice between being true to what you believe and having friends. Two of my closet friends would disown me if they knew.
Do I have to lie forever?

OP posts:
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Bringtheweatherwithyou · 12/02/2024 22:27

otherwise it would soon reach the point where cis women wouldn’t bother competing because there would be no point,

Let me correct the above for you.
‘where women wouldn’t bother competing’..

We are women. Just women.

Thanks!

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:30

WarriorN · 12/02/2024 08:40

@Minglingpringle

The long running thread "it will never happens."

It will never happen - resource thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Posters have stopped collecting examples as there's so many.

Reduxx was set up by several investigative journalists to investigate and record incidents whereby both men pretending to be trans have committed crimes, mostly sexual or murder, or individuals who have transitioned have committed such crimes.

reduxx.info/

The safeguarding issues around this topic are much bigger than the aspect of single sex spaces such as toilets and hospital wards.

The other reason why so many women are drawing clear boundaries around this is that children are transitioning due to what is now more of a trend, which appears to become genuine distress, thanks to the endless social media and charity indoctrination, and then regretting it. And being physically harmed. Especially via puberty blockers which have not been properly tested.

There is a rapidly growing number of detransitioners who have had medical intervention which is irreversible.

Search the terms on mumsnet and Twitter and you'll find many people speaking out about it.

This is a film from the perspectives of young women who've detransitioned.

And another one:

Daisy who is the first woman featured posted on Twitter this weekend about the deep pain she has being a mother unable to breastfeed.

This is the most recent, extremely painful and forensic documentary which wholly looks at the male perspective, with detransitioners who are male and through they were female. It is very good at exploring where the pain they had really came from. Some were groomed by older trans women in real life and online.

Some have had major surgeries and suffer extreme pain and incontinence.

It's worth considering whether the "kindness" and lack of challenge that perhaps you feel we can afford these young troubled men is really that kind?

Thanks, that looks interesting,

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:35

I didn’t say they should. I said nobody’s freedoms should restrict another person’s freedoms.

Their freedoms shouldn't restrict mine then.

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:35

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2024 07:49

In what respects are men who threaten women and say things like terfs die and harass them and dox them and get them kicked out of jobs in a mob mentality, really vulnerable?

In what respects are men who have powerful lobby groups who have captured most corporate companies and public sector organisations vulnerable?

In comparison to say, a woman wanting single sex rape crisis help and domestic abuse shelters - who can't get funding without including men in every scenario?

Please read up. The trope about the most vulnerable in society being trans is a load of utter bollocks.

It’s very common that people who feel badly treated and afraid go on the attack. That’s how wars start. It’s not right and it makes everything worse (especially as the people they’re attacking feel badly treated and afraid in their turn, ending up in a tit-for-tat escalation) but it doesn’t mean it’s impossible that their original feeling was one of vulnerability.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:37

The bit you quote there didn’t say that. I was saying how interesting it was that there was so much unanimity and I wondered if this was the overwhelming feeling of mumsnetters or if you are all a self-selecting group.

It's your quote, so it did say that. I didn't misquote you, did I?

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:37

Kucinghitam · 12/02/2024 08:27

Methinks the new fresh poster is (deliberately?) not understanding what being Gender Critical means.

No, I don’t really understand what point you’re making but, I get it, I’m in the wrong place and I’m not welcome here! I will retire gracefully!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:38

It’s very common that people who feel badly treated and afraid go on the attack

Have you ever personally looked at whether it's at all reasonable for them to feel "afraid", let alone for them to attack others because of it?

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:39

BitingtheSkirting · 12/02/2024 11:44

I take the view that if people SAY something is making them unhappy, our first instinct should be to believe them

OK, Mingle. My student daughter is very unhappy at being expected to share female loos at uni with males. Do you believe her?

Yes

Hotgirlwinter · 12/02/2024 22:39

Ah fuck them(/they). You are protected in law to dispute gender ideology and to state quite unequivocally that there are two sexes.
As long as you are respectful with your opinions and not using offensive slurs then what possible grounds does an employer or supplier of your employer have to take issue with your beliefs.

they don’t - it’s illegal to do so.

our edi has put out a load of waffle about lgbt+ history month - great, I love to learn. However they have missed race equality at work week, disability awareness month, international women’s day etc etc - they have not done one event that isn’t sex related. Hardly very diverse for a diversity committee.

youre not alone OP. The only thing you should feel down about is how fucking stupid some of your contemporaries are. Poor loves

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:40

The idea of "cis" being a "famous word" is amusing. Go out on the street and do a vox pop. Ask a cross section of the general public whether they know what it means.

FrancescaContini · 12/02/2024 22:42

How can a word be “famous”?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:44

I'd really appreciate your answer to the question I posed, @Minglingpringle

I find it fascinating how you clearly know males and females aren't the same yet take it as read that some males should be treated as women. On what basis?

What gave you the impression that an ideology which has been mainstream for about 5 minutes is something most people adhere to, to the point of you thinking we are in some way weird or unusual for objecting to it?

TheSlantedOwl · 12/02/2024 22:45

@Notfeelingitwasworthit I just want to join the choir of posters saying thank you for your courage. It really does mean so much that there are women like you brave enough to speak the truth.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2024 22:47

FrancescaContini · 12/02/2024 22:42

How can a word be “famous”?

I saw it signing autographs at the back entrance to the Roxy last Friday night! So z list famous!

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:37

The bit you quote there didn’t say that. I was saying how interesting it was that there was so much unanimity and I wondered if this was the overwhelming feeling of mumsnetters or if you are all a self-selecting group.

It's your quote, so it did say that. I didn't misquote you, did I?

I think you attributed some subtext to it that wasn’t there.

Catiette · 12/02/2024 22:50

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:24

I didn’t say they should. I said nobody’s freedoms should restrict another person’s freedoms.

But you use cis.

Right there is a freedom women have lost: to be free to define ourselves as a distinct political demographic with common needs due to our biology; to be free to define ourselves the way we see ourselves - not limited by, but proudly respecting the truth of, our own biology. Cis only exists relative to trans, & positions women relative to trans. It forces us into a new category.

This is one hell of a freedom for women to have lost. The empathy extended to trans people’s desire to self-identify implicitly acknowledges this - it’s respected as deep-seated & valid… while denying women the same freedoms of self-perception & language.

But whereas trans people still exist as a distinct demographic, with a vocabulary to draw on to describe themselves & advocate for their needs, women-as-were no longer have this.

And, what’s more, this loss of women-as-we’re’ freedom to define themselves is contributing to tangible mental & physical harm on a grand scale. Males in women’s prisons, sports & shortlists; corrupted data in already-neglected areas; privacy in hospitals; increased vulnerability to injury (sport) & attack (the loss of single sex spaces).

Anyone prepared to use “cis” has made a choice: that a trans person’s freedom to self-define is more important than many biological women’s equivalent freedom.

And anyone who’s put enough thought in (regrettably, I think that’s still proportionately few people!) has made that choice knowing its devastating impact on women’s concrete & legal freedoms, & judging this as less significant than trans people’s (substantial in some cases, yes) emotional discomfort.

Edited to say, I’m genuinely curious how you’d reconcile using “cis” with your views on freedom in the light of the above. Are these new perspectives on this word? Or would you say they’re over-exaggerated? (I’d personally say this is hard to argue, once you start reading about what’s happening). Would you reconsider your usage? And, if not, could you argue for retaining it, with reference to the arguments above? A compromise on one or other group’s freedoms is needed either way: I defend my choice above, and would be interested to hear this countered.

determinedtomakethiswork · 12/02/2024 22:50

Thisisthedawningoftheageofaquarius · 09/02/2024 23:23

Just read your update post - leftie brainwashed men are the absolute worst; from the position of protecting the poor victimised oppressed TW in which they don’t see any incongruity, so they are smug and self righteous.

See Billy Bragg for a shining example of this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:51

I'd really appreciate if you could answer my question. Your "how fascinating" comment was merely the jumping off point for mine.

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:44

I'd really appreciate your answer to the question I posed, @Minglingpringle

I find it fascinating how you clearly know males and females aren't the same yet take it as read that some males should be treated as women. On what basis?

What gave you the impression that an ideology which has been mainstream for about 5 minutes is something most people adhere to, to the point of you thinking we are in some way weird or unusual for objecting to it?

I’m not taking anything as read. I’m trying to balance everybody’s competing interests.

Just because something is new doesn’t make it wrong. A lot of terrible things happened in the past that need changing.

I haven’t complained about you objecting to it. I think we’ll never thrash out a solution if people don’t talk about it.

SamW98 · 12/02/2024 22:54

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:40

The idea of "cis" being a "famous word" is amusing. Go out on the street and do a vox pop. Ask a cross section of the general public whether they know what it means.

Im in my 50’s and I can honestly say I’d never seen the word used until I read these boards. And it’s still the only place other than Twitter I’ve ever seen it used.

It’s really not a common word amongst the GBP

FrancescaContini · 12/02/2024 22:57

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2024 22:47

I saw it signing autographs at the back entrance to the Roxy last Friday night! So z list famous!

🤣

It might be a “famous” word but it’s also very offensive. There’s no such person as a “cis” woman.

nothingcomestonothing · 12/02/2024 22:57

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:35

It’s very common that people who feel badly treated and afraid go on the attack. That’s how wars start. It’s not right and it makes everything worse (especially as the people they’re attacking feel badly treated and afraid in their turn, ending up in a tit-for-tat escalation) but it doesn’t mean it’s impossible that their original feeling was one of vulnerability.

There are so many resources which might be useful for you, I hardly know where to start.

This might be helpful, for understanding the most marginalised and vulnerable™ trope: https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

This might be helpful, as a flavour of the relative levels of attack: https://terfisaslur.com/

(Edited for typo)

Neither marginalised, abused nor vulnerable | Madison Smith | The Critic Magazine

Ask almost any politician any question about gender identity — even if it’s specifically about women’s bodies or women’s rights — and you will inevitably hear the following sentence with minimal…

https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable

Minglingpringle · 12/02/2024 22:58

Catiette · 12/02/2024 22:50

But you use cis.

Right there is a freedom women have lost: to be free to define ourselves as a distinct political demographic with common needs due to our biology; to be free to define ourselves the way we see ourselves - not limited by, but proudly respecting the truth of, our own biology. Cis only exists relative to trans, & positions women relative to trans. It forces us into a new category.

This is one hell of a freedom for women to have lost. The empathy extended to trans people’s desire to self-identify implicitly acknowledges this - it’s respected as deep-seated & valid… while denying women the same freedoms of self-perception & language.

But whereas trans people still exist as a distinct demographic, with a vocabulary to draw on to describe themselves & advocate for their needs, women-as-were no longer have this.

And, what’s more, this loss of women-as-we’re’ freedom to define themselves is contributing to tangible mental & physical harm on a grand scale. Males in women’s prisons, sports & shortlists; corrupted data in already-neglected areas; privacy in hospitals; increased vulnerability to injury (sport) & attack (the loss of single sex spaces).

Anyone prepared to use “cis” has made a choice: that a trans person’s freedom to self-define is more important than many biological women’s equivalent freedom.

And anyone who’s put enough thought in (regrettably, I think that’s still proportionately few people!) has made that choice knowing its devastating impact on women’s concrete & legal freedoms, & judging this as less significant than trans people’s (substantial in some cases, yes) emotional discomfort.

Edited to say, I’m genuinely curious how you’d reconcile using “cis” with your views on freedom in the light of the above. Are these new perspectives on this word? Or would you say they’re over-exaggerated? (I’d personally say this is hard to argue, once you start reading about what’s happening). Would you reconsider your usage? And, if not, could you argue for retaining it, with reference to the arguments above? A compromise on one or other group’s freedoms is needed either way: I defend my choice above, and would be interested to hear this countered.

Edited

This cis word is obviously a massive trigger.

I used it thoughtlessly as it seemed to fit the context, where I was contrasting trans women with other women.

Nobody on here seems to think it’s a word the average person would know but it’s very well known. If I know it, it must be.

I don’t think it helps the debate to get so angry about the wrong use of language, and infer from that that I am an enemy.

You guys are very unhappy but there are a load of people on the other side also very unhappy. I am trying to respect everybody.

FrancescaContini · 12/02/2024 22:59

The only person I ever heard using it in a non tongue in cheek way was a male as described above.

Fetaa · 12/02/2024 23:01

Op there will be people in the room who feel the same but unable to speak up.