Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

[HagoftheNorth]

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

Are you OK Adam?

We disagree on this and that's fine.

The fact that you raised the American Right in respect of my post made me think you were suggesting that that was my political leaning. If you didn't mean that then perhaps don't suggest I use the same tactics as them !!

I'm not the only poster who thinks that Starmer was in the wrong to bring up Brianna's murder to shut conversation up. At least as many people agree with my interpretation as agree with yours.

Either way, debating women's rights and the how to best help gendering questioning children is essential. Hopefully both sides can now move on and have these important conversations.

Sunak is the Offender, Starmer/Esther Ghey are the victim.

For pity's sake, victims of what? It being pointed out to Starmer that he flip flops and reverse ferrets on policies and proclamations when convenient?

Starmer is scared to define what a woman is for fear of upsetting the TRAs in his party.

Sunak is right to hold Starmer's feet to the fire on this.

Also, I think all journalists when interviewing Starmer should ask him to define what a woman is and not move the interview on until he does so.

Why should I give my vote to any political party that does not know what I am?

Starmer is the victim?

What for being a major walking u turn

Bloody hell people have lost it

Agree @GailBlancheViola

I would definitely tell an anorexic they weren't fat, yes.

Exactly that. It’s a shot in the foot. Forget about this being used for political gain in the run up to an election as long as Sunak’s Tory leader.

@AdamRyan she wasn’t present. Making a reference to the fact that men cannot become women while Esther Grey was in the building (not chamber) will not be seen as a “landmine” to the majority of voters.

In a DARVO sense. DARVO is a manipulative pattern of behaviour, whereby when someone is challenged on something rather than admitting it they attack the person who made the challenge and reverse the narrative so they are the victim (usually of the exact same thing the other party complained about).

That is exactly what Sunak and his supporters have done here. On being challenged by starmer, make out starmer caused the situation and claim Starmer did exactly what Sunak is being asked to apologise for. It is blatant.

I only knew about it as a tactic of individual abusers and narcissists so its interesting to see it being deployed on a "factory" scale to cause utter confusion. Scary actually.

teddle the outrage about what Sunak said is not manufactured so I think you are slightly clutching at straws there.

Even if she wasn't present then, she sure as shit knows about it now. Seems pretty unfair on her and her family to be caught up in this fiasco while they are grieving.

That is exactly what Sunak and his supporters have done here. On being challenged by starmer, make out starmer caused the situation and claim Starmer did exactly what Sunak is being asked to apologise for. It is blatant.

Which out of Sunak and Starmer brought up Brianna's murder in yesterdays PMQ Adam and why did they do that?

Edit to say other than to mention the presence of EG.

And the role of the Women and Equalities Committee (majority Conservative) report on Transgender Equality 2015-16? Where does that figure? Or are we still all pretending the Tories aren't at least as culpable?

Some gems from the report

"The Government must update the (GR) Act, in line with the principle of gender self-declaration."

"Protection for trans people under the Equality Act 2010 was a huge step forward. However, the terms “gender reassignment” and “transsexual” in the Act are outdated and misleading; and may not cover wider members of the trans community. The protected characteristic should be amended to that of “gender identity”."

"We agree with the Chair of the NHS National Clinical Reference Group for Gender Identity Services that: “not treating people [for gender dysphoria] is not a neutral act—it will do harm.” "

We don’t have Self ID

If we didn’t have the GRA none of this mess would exist

It’s an incredibly poor law creating mounting issues twenty years later and it will continue to increase

So the argument that Sunak's comment was all about women and nothing to do with 'trans', which has been made repeatedly on this thread is obviously disingenuous nonsense

@AdamRyan but where is this outrage manifesting itself? In a small section of social media.

Oh haven't you realised? That was years ago and it isn't a U turn, it's the Tories listening to women #sarcasm

It's amazing for it to be suggested that those of us who think it was Starmer who behaved inappropriately by bringing up Brianna's murder are using group manipulation tactics.

Almost surreal really.

At the minimum it seems extremely paranoid.

People are allowed to have a different interpretation without it being a conspiracy.

Ah yes your Labour lot

‘No one is talking about it’

well done

Not

Across all mainstream media outlets today. Apart, predictably, from The Telegraph.

It was Starmer as a response to Sunak raising gender politics and he did it because he was offended (or maybe to score points but lots of people were offended so let's just assume he also was as none of us are mind readers).
Hence why its DARVO. Starmer makes a legitimate complaint, Sunak reverses the narrative to be about the complaint and makes himself the victim. Its very manipulative behaviour.

@AdamRyan - I don't agree that it's ALL down to one single party or government. Nothing happens in a vacuum. What I'm certain about is that RIGHT NOW there isn't any one party, nor any prospective PM who promotes any sort of confidence or trust in me and so, because I'm able to show dissent through spoiling my ballot, that's what I'll do come GE time.

Blaming Labour or the Tories (or anyone else) is futile. Blame is a game for those with time on their hands. There are too many people in the UK right now who've run out of the luxury of time to play the blame game.

We need moderate, rational, logical, intelligent, honest, truthful and DECENT people to come through the political ranks and begin enacting positive change - both in the political process itself (overhaul of the current FPTP system etc) AND in how the general public at large engage with political process.

I believe that an introduction to political process and how it's enacted in this country needs to form part of the national curriculum - from day 1 of our education. Is it any wonder that so many people feel alienated and disenfranchised when they have no idea how legislation that directly affects their lives is formed - and why?

How can anyone possibly hope to understand the arcane world of political process, and take part in it, when it doesn't form a part of their daily life? How does the populous at large even begin to question the status quo when they're not even aware THEY could be part of discussions, debates and the formulatory process that governs everyday life?

Kids growing up questioning decisions lacking in fairness and decency, recognising deceit and calling it out, being able to confidently and factually take apart an argument to get to the root of self-serving machinations without the need for petty grandstanding, enacting positive change to the betterment of everyone. I think any shoddy government would absolutely SHIT themselves at the thought.

An informed, active, educated and AWARE population would be the single best antidote to governmental corruption and wrongdoing.

Under those kinds of conditions, we wouldn't even be here now discussing what Sunak said to Starmer!

This. He never answers a question. He just trots out his script. The (completely useless) Speaker shouldn't let him get away with it. Bercow would have made mincemeat of him.

Did I miss Sunak saying he would repeal the GRA?

If not he apparently agrees with the current law, so I’m not clear why he is disagreeing with Starmer.

You need to read some threads on repealing the GRA

I want Starmer to define what a woman is.

He seems loathe to do so.

Sunak said Starmer cannot define what a woman is, which as far as I know is correct.

Starmer tried to twist this to pretend it was somehow about Mrs Ghey.

Nevermind. Between now and November, at some point Starmer will be put on the spot and won't be able to wriggle out of it by using a bereaved mother as a human shield.

He'll have to define what a woman is.

Then we'll see.

Yes he can’t hide behind it forever