Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

[HagoftheNorth]

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

Labour with the GRA

Come again? Who is the offender and who is the victim in your scenario Adam, I'm all ears.

And what does Trump have to do with anything?

I watched PMQ as did others to see what all of the fuss was about. It was Starmer who raised a child's murder not Sunak. Sunak ought to have known that Starmer would make political capital out of it so was stupid to mention Starmer's strange belief that some women have a penis, but he wasn't the one who made it about a child's murder.

I expect the prime minister to be intelligent enough to tailor his response to the context he finds himself in.
The fact he can't (and neither can any of his MPs apparently) shows why he had to fast track a proper politician (Cameron) to handle conversations with the grown ups.

Sunak is the Offender, Starmer/Esther Ghey are the victim.
Sunak made a crass remark. Rather than apologise, his supporters now claim it wasn't crass or ghey wasnt there (deny), starmer laid a trap or lied about ghey being there (attack) and therefore starmer should apologise (reverse victim and offender).

I'm surprised to see its actually being recognised as a tactic of the American right now, rather than "just" a feature of abusive relationships. It's being described as "victimised bully syndrome"

https://www.salon.com/2021/12/27/the-conservative-urge-to-be-a-victim-why-right-wing-victimhood-is-spreading-so-fast/

Why did he have to tailor his response? Because Esther Ghey was in the same building?! Nuts

Sunak is the Offender, Starmer/Esther Ghey are the victim.
Sunak made a crass remark. Rather than apologise, his supporters now claim it wasn't crass or ghey wasnt there (deny), starmer laid a trap or lied about ghey being there (attack) and therefore starmer should apologise (reverse victim and offender).

That's your interpretation. Many others disagree with you.

Oh and back to the insults.

Clearly I am part of the American Right, you couldn't make it up!

Sunak sticking to his guns

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68237826

He didn't "have to". But I'd expect the Prime Minister to have the nous to be able to spot and avoid a landmine like that. It was very stupid of him and if he'd just apologised straight away he could have minimised the damage.
Unless he intentionally said something crass, to provoke the media reaction. That really would be playing politics, I prefer to think he's an incompetent PM in preference to that.

Sunak said it to remind everyone of Starmer's definition of women, in order to wind Starmer up, which it did. Mrs Ghey was not in the gallery at the time, so Starmer used her to get back at Sunak rather than answer the question.

You deal with it well but you get some bizarre stuff lobbed your way

It doesn't matter if she was in the gallery. (She wasn't)

We cannot bring about a situation in which our own politicians are gagged. That must never happen.

Thanks Eastern, a suggestion that I align with the American Right is right up there with the bizarrest things I've ever been accused of!

It's particularly strange because I go out of my way to be factual and not personal with posters.

I wish both sides of the political divide would do right by women and gender non conforming children. I've been clear on that throughout this and any other thread I've posted on.

Successive governments, hell-bent on turning the UK into a playground for corporate capitalism. I blame ALL political processes in that direction of the last 30 years for that. Swathes of empty property sold off to overseas investors sitting empty whilst homeless people shiver in doorways. Kids going to school with their bellies rumbling, parents forced to work three or four zero hours contracts who then STILL have to choose between food and heat. NHS waiting lists growing ever-longer whilst shareholders and owners of private healthcare firms grow ever richer and nurses and doctors see their pay shrinking year-on-year. Crumbling public transport, crumbling schools (literally thanks to RAAC), teachers leaving the profession in droves, burnt out from the demand for data over teaching and feeling the weight of despair upon them so badly that some of them take their own lives.

The litany of failures of our elected representatives - the cronyism, the sly collusion to line their own pockets - actually, not even that sly, it happens in plain fucking sight (Mone & Barrowman et al), the greed and corruption. It all stinks and if there's even ONE decent politician in Westminster, they're at the bottom of that stinking pile screaming to be heard. I've written and spoken to my MP so many times and only ever get back cursory, stock responses - there's no attempt to engage or show interest whatsoever.

And yet the baiting and petty squabbles go on, the media laps it up and dishes it out and we react to it. Where the fuck is anyone half decent who'd actually WANT to be a politician AND can take the shit thrown at them by a jaded public who've run out of confidence and trust in political process?

I'm sick of ALL of it and this year is the first time I'll ever have to spoil my ballot in the GE.

Agreed.

Saying someone is deploying the same tactics as the American right is not saying they are the American right. Its purely an observation about global politics and how much American culture seeps into UK discourse. I find it interesting. "Right wing victimhood" is definitely a thing, what with all the accusations of "lefty scolding" and "its all remains fault we got brexit, they made us feel stupid"

Poor sunak, he couldn't avoid the blatant trap. Tiny violins

AdamRyan · Today 13:33

Sunak made that connection by choosing to bring the matter up at that time.

I'm afraid that's entirely counterfactual. Starmer made the connection and mentioned EG. It's hardly Sunak's fault if Starmer wants to put words in his mouth.

I cannot believe the Sunak cheerleaders here

I'm not cheering him, I'm jeering Starmer. I feel betrayed by Labour in General and Starmer in particular.

tabitha those are all Conservative generated issues. You can still vote, just not Tory.
Not voting will cause more of the same if the Tories get in

To my ears it was crassly insensitive of Starmer to jump to 'Brianna' when Sunak brought up his inability to define 'woman'.

I don't want to attempt to speak for Esther Ghey, who has conducted herself with admirable dignity, courage and compassion at all times, but I'm pretty sure that her child's gender presentation is one of the least important things about them. Would she have heard that speech from Sunak and immediately have jumped to thinking he was making an insensitive jibe at her child's expense? I very much doubt it. Yet Starmer puffed himself up like an indignant hen and pointed the finger of outrage, showing that in his head 'woman with a penis' = teenage victim of sadistic classmate murderers.

It really contradicts the narrative that TWAW-believers like Starmer accept TW absolutely, fundamentally as women. To me that seems more offensive and insensitive than Sunak speaking in non-specific, impersonal terms about Starmer's vague and inconsistent pronouncements.

@AdamRyan its not a “landmine” to the vast majority of people in this country.

It’s perpetually amazing to me how actual women (including sexual assault survivors) are just supposed to just suck up the grotesque infringement of their rights but oh my god, please don’t hurt the feelings of someone who doesn’t believe in biological reality.

Idk how you give the time to it. But you are very reasonable all round

The GRA has set the UK on fire? I thought it was 14 years of Tory corruption, incompetence and cruelty.

The "landmine" referred to Sunak making reference to transgender politics ("Starmer doesn't know what a woman is") when Esther ghey was present.

If you want the start of gender ideology yes the GRA 2004

It’s all there if you need information

Sunaks's defenders seem to be ignoring that the original question was about NHS waiting lists.

Maybe if he'd actually answered the question rather than just using his favourite pre-prepared (and in this instance irrelevant) attack lines he wouldn't be in this mess.