Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Right, thank you, but that's about children and hot on the heels of government guidance that he'd be mad to disagree with.

Does he now tell his pupils they don't have to call him Miss?

And does he use the men's facilities?

Sorry, the article's behind a paywall, so I can't even check if it's in it.

No. Absolutely not. He is a very skilful manipulator and entirely less honest than even the most rabid TRA.

I don’t doubt that, but the TRA claim is that TWAW, AGP doesn’t exist and has been debunked (at least some of them say that) and sex is a spectrum and you can change sex (or that no one has one) blah blah. DH is telling the truth about these things while TRAs lie.

the fact that he may be manipulative and dishonest about some things, and may be a narcissistic husband, doesn’t change the fact that he is honest about some things that TRAs are lying about with very dangerous implications for children, among others. His honesty about those things does undermine and counteract that narrative and I think that’s a good thing. Doesn’t mean I think he’s a saint and certainly not a feminist but I would rather there were AGPs taking this stance, than not.

he may be manipulative and dishonest about some things, and may be a narcissistic husband,
This is not how dishonesty and narcissism work.

He's dishonest in more subtle ways. The person who makes us believe his lies (and in this case actually be grateful for them!) is far more dangerous than the obvious fool.

Personally, the only stance an AGP could take to show any allyship to women, is not to do it in public.

Not keep on doing it, make a virtue out of telling everyone that you're doing it, and disregard your entire family, by putting it all in a book.

But it’s not lying to say that TW are men/male, that transitioning doesn’t make you the opposite sex and is unlikely to make you happy, that AGP exists. These are not lies. And they are things that are being routinely lied about and these lies are being promulgated in our education system, NHS, police etc. to disastrous effect for kids and homosexuals and women.

However manipulative or dishonest DH may be (and believe me, I am not naive about manipulative and narcissistic people, self-deluding people, passive-aggressive people etc and have had plenty of experience with them) - are you really saying he’s lying when he says these things? No he’s not. He’s telling the truth about these things and incurring massive wrath from the TRA lobby for doing so. Just as several prominent GC commentators do. They point out these same facts.

this isn’t about me being “grateful” to him, and I am not taken in by him as some kind of Mr Nice Guy. At all. But are you really saying that because you dislike and distrust him, he isn’t capable of telling the truth? He obviously IS telling the truth about the reality of sex, AGP and transition - and that’s important, whether or not you like its source.

None of this makes him an ally to women/the GC. He can pretend that if he likes. I don’t know what his motives are.

Personally, it's not about whether he's honest or not. (His entire persona is an act of dishonesty). It's the reason for it. And, again personally, I don't think for a single second that the reason for is honesty is to be honest.

If people haven't had enough dealings with either Hayton, or other men like him, then the only thing other women can do is to forewarn them in order that they are forearmed.

Look at actions, not words. Look at what you're expected to accept, rather than what you are being told are the motives of the person asking.

And, in case it wasn't clear, there are numerous men who are quite upfront about their AGP. Hayton is not unusual. And the one thing it's not characterised by is the candid nature of those who have it, and their concern for women.

I think I'm going to have to give up. You just can't convince some people when they're being manipulated. I need a month on a desert island when the book comes out.

His entire persona is an act of dishonesty

I agree with this. As he's a teacher, he's deceiving/confusing children which for me is beyond forgiveness.

His dishonesty is twofold:

1. He pretends to be a woman when he's actually a man.
2. He pretends that he does this because he feels deep down he's a woman. But actually he does it because it turns him on.

If the counter argument is "no, he is honest about those things" then why does he expect his teenage students to refer to him as a woman? How can he keep his job if he's honest that he makes his students do something that turns him on ?!

Hmm you’re not listening to me. You’re determined to cast me as a naive handmaiden who welcomes DH. I’m not.

He tells the truth about some things that are being dangerously lied about. I don’t need that, I’ve been aware of these truths for years. But those truths may get through to people who need to hear them.

The logical conclusion of this “you don’t realise you’re being manipulated “ line is that you think DH should be silent and the true things he says don’t count even though they’re the same truths that the GC movement are trying to get heard.

I don’t care if DH is trying to manipulate me - he won’t succeed. What do you think this dread manipulation you think I’ve fallen victim to is going to do to me exactly? I can recognise a truth / fact without becoming beholden to its teller. But people who are being lied to and misled by gender ideology may well benefit from him saying these things. A young man who’s been taken in by it all might decide to give it some thought and decide against surgery for example. Because he might see that there are other experiences and viewpoints besides “you’re a woman and you’ll be so happy once you get surgery”.

To me that would be a good thing. I’m a rationalist and what is known as GC, but I’m not in charge of everyone who dares to make a statement I agree with and tell them they can’t make it unless they fully align with my views and standards. I’m also not very impressed with people who can’t understand a considered or nuanced position making out that I’m the naive one. it’s possible to approach this and see parts as well as a whole.

If the counter argument is "no, he is honest about those things" then why does he expect his teenage students to refer to him as a woman? How can he keep his job if he's honest that he makes his students do something that turns him on ?!

Yes, that’s appalling and unacceptable and I will oppose that, theoretically and in every practical way I can, all the way.

NONETHELESS, the fact that he is honest that TW are not W, that AGP exists and that transition will not solve all your problems needs to be said and could literally save some people from a horrible grisly and irreversible fate.

How can you not see that both can be true?

There's no need to be defensive about having been manipulated, we're all prone to it. Nobody is immune.

Well, I'm not going to be happy until he's shaved his head, donned a suit and tie, and self-immolated whilst intoning 'this is all my fault'. Then come back from the dead just to travel back in time in order to unbreak his wife's heart.

Seriously, he's showing us who he is - a needy narcissist who wants to show off, make some money, and cause trouble.

I'm totally on board with the troublemaking part of it.

I'll mention again, just in passing, the thought of the functional alcoholic.

Family, colleagues and friends would all have different stories to tell about their experience of the person's niceness, reliability, trustworthiness, the management of the addiction, their apparent insight into it and their current feelings on their control over it. And how badly they had impacted other people because of it. A colleague may have radically different perspectives than say, a wife.

It's remarkably similar ground in many ways.

I would, obviously, be delighted if a young man was saved from a horrible fate, because of Debbie Hayton.

If Debbie Hayton stopped acting out his fetish in public, and spent his time addressing young men on Reddit, or tumblr, saying this life is shit, please don't do what I've done, then I might agree with you.

As it is, Debbie H is walking around conducting his fetish in full view of the public, doing interviews and selling books on the back of it.

I genuinely think a lot of women feel sorry for him tho. He doesn't look like the normal slightly threatening cross-dresser. He does cut a rather pathetic figure.

Just remember. He chooses what he looks like. He chooses what he wears. All of it.

If Debbie Hayton stopped acting out his fetish in public, and spent his time addressing young men on Reddit, or tumblr, saying this life is shit, please don't do what I've done, then I might agree with you.

Yes indeed - at a bare, bare minimum, he needs to stop acting out his fetish in front of the student children in his care.

He is no better than that DT teacher with the enormous prosthetics. Possibly worse because he courts publicity, with his media appearances and book.

It is indefensible to treat his students this way and this is a hill I'll die on tbh. I'm saying this not just as a woman and mother, but also from the pov of being a teacher. He is not compliant with "keeping children safe in education"

I wanted to address this comment from @Karensalright

I cannot accept that Stephanie is some oppressed woman who does not know her own mind, there is no evidence for that and frankly i find that quite patronising.

As a woman who stayed far too long in an abusive marriage for reasons I won’t go into, I think your comment here is also very patronizing.

I was an oppressed woman who latterly did know my own mind, but still found it very difficult to leave, partly because I wanted to minimize the effect on my children and partly because I feared what would happen when I did.

The latter was not so much fear of physical reprisals, but of the loss of certain benefits in life that marriage brought. In my case, one of those was due to living outside the UK and not having my own visa, but there are many, many reasons why women stay married long after they know that they really want to get out.

So I don’t in any way think that Stephanie is weak or doesn’t know her own mind. I think that’s a false take on what many of us think.

I think that, like me, she might feel utterly stuck and fearful of leaving a very long marriage, which likely has been happy in parts, but which has now become unbearable. I could be wrong, but if she is here and reading, I will reiterate that there are those here who would support her all the way if she needs it.

So I don’t in any way think that Stephanie is weak or doesn’t know her own mind. I think that’s a false take on what many of us think.

She did know her own mind.

Hayton told her that if she ever wanted him to leave, he would. Eventually, she did and he refused to go.

Hayton told her that if she ever wanted him to leave, he would. Eventually, she did and he refused to go.

That would be very frustrating but she still has the right to end her marriage if she wants - it’s not up to him. Of course that doesn’t mean it’s easy and there are reasons why women don’t, but she isn’t prevented from getting a divorce just because he says he won’t leave.

There are various reasons why women are unable to initiate a divorce, but I think its crass to speculate about a specific woman who has not spoken publicly.

Yes, I don't think the issue was that she wasn't capable of going to the solicitors herself.

There's no need to be defensive about having been manipulated, we're all prone to it. Nobody is immune.

That’s very patronising and superior, but it’s good that you understand that you too could be being manipulated. You seem to have entered a GC purity spiral where you get to decide who can speak and whose words can be listened to on the basis of whether they are deemed to be larping or fetishising being the opposite sex. And the virtue signalling is to prove that you’re not naive and others are.

Yet we have all kinds of people having a say in this debate, including not just active AGPs but GC trans men and women, paedophilia defenders/apologists, detransitioners and former TRAs who’ve changed their minds, people who oppose gender ideology from a viewpoint of religious belief or conservatism who also oppose any gender non-conformism. It’s a complex, noisy and ever-changing landscape where you will find yourself agreeing with people whose other views or behaviours appal you. What are you going to do? spend your energies instructing other GC feminists whose words they are and aren’t allowed to hear and telling them they’re being manipulated, or pursuing reality and a way to end this bollocks and protect those it’s harming, and even listening to other GC feminists sometimes or agreeing to disagree?

A TW with a platform in a national paper making clear that TW are not W and what AGP is is not bad thing. He may not be a nice person and might have ill or manipulative intentions, but genderwoo will be overturned by reality, not by nice people. I think any of the reality around transition being made public is ultimately positive and contributes to breaking down the lies of GI. Please do explain clearly how that belief means I’m being manipulated.

How is it superior to say we're all prone to manipulation? I married one! It's quite obvious I'm just as susceptible .

Couldn’t agree more Datun!!