Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5

[nauticant]

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3
Thread #4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4991883-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-4

I almost prefer the last two, who made themselves look like utter fools through trying to back up unreasonable colleagues, to this one trying to hang it on the absent Nico. What piece of work

No training on implications of Forstater judgement

KH: at the time of appeal she wasn't aware that GC beliefs were protected under the Equality Act 2010.

Lol. I think someone was fast on the trigger initially after I was reported.

NC you say it's not clear but it's clear from report that it's an inquisition into C belief and you ignore that

KH don't agree. I was looking at policy breach or not, mitigating circs, proportionate outcome for everyone.

NC Before report any training on edi in workplace

KH yes

NC and about freedom of expression? Heard about Forstater

KH not in detail but heard c it

NC any training on judgment outcome

KH no

NC training that gc beliefs protected

KH no. not at the time I was involved in appeal

I give up.

Did she just admit she looked at the appeal with no reference or knowledge of the contents of Mayas woriad outcome?

Christ

Yep. But don't worry, there's nothing she would have done differently.

AB needed time off for the upset. ffs How do they get through the day?

As a board member main thing is to make sure we adhere to our policies.

It's a long time since I was a board member but don't the board share some responsibility for the policies and how they are implemented? You don't blindly adhere to them.

This is a MASSIVE learning moment for this witness!

Very late to the hearing today and thread today so not caught up. Blimey, the confident manner and slippery answers of this witness! Are we watching the early years of a professional politician?

NC now pointing out the hyper-fragility of AB to KH.

KH yes, way in which views expressed are often at expense of trans people existence
Who is being centred here? This is a service for rape survivors not a charity that is focused on the needs of trans people.

If there is a clash between the needs of women who have survived rape and trans people, what does she do and how should those needs be balanced?

I think training should be safe and protective space, so this sentence didn't factor into my decision.
The only thing that matters is staff and the safe protection of staff. No thought for how the public have a range of views and may not be TWAW - and how staff need to deal with that because of the vulnerable nature of service users?

TONE DEAF. She can literally only see the needs of trans people because of a heirachy of needs. She has NO understanding of the principle of balancing of needs and how this may change according to circumstance (eg if its a rape crisis service and the needs of women automatically should be the priority as the EA highlights by having exemptions in the first place).

She demonstates a Stonewall understanding of the EA section 9 exemption too.

She seems a bright young woman. It's a shame she has associated herself with this shitshow.

"Do employees have a general right to limit what their employers have a right to talk about?" I've been aching for her to ask this.

KH is another one who believes that the needs of the support worker need to take priority over the needs of the service user.

KH our trans incl policy, okay for member staff not to disclose sex

NC in a rape crisis centre?

NC an employee who needs to take time off work cos so upset in this situation, who is that fragile is not well enough to be at work in first place

KH don't agree. Was boundary crossing, AB had made it clear what did/didn't want to be discussed at work.

God these people are so fragile they should be at home, they aren't fit for work and certainly not with rape victims

Why didn't Worknest tell her? Something's rotten about what they were told in the first place I reckon. Or they are totally shite at giving Employment Law advice

"Our service users can absolutely ask for what they need."

OH FUCK OFF, WE HAVE BEEN WATCHING THE LAST FEW DAYS, YOU KNOW.

I'm assuming worknest are captured and stonewalled?

You are a board member. Its your responsibility to ensure that that YOU and staff members have this training. You don't just shrug and say "oh well i didn't get that training session". You seek out that information and you ensure your policy is up to date.

If you are aware of the Forstater judgment you are therefore aware that you need to make changes to reflect that. If you don't you automatically show you are failinging in your duties as a board member.

This is a BIG FAIL.

I was going to say that either ERCC didn't ask / didn't listen or Worknest are Stonewalled to the eyeballs.