Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

Whilst I understand your partner has a whole set of issues to navigate in regard to healthcare, services and sports, this just comes across as a bit smokes and mirrors to the issue of why so many women do not seem to care about losing their rights. My experience is it certainly not the transmen creating problems. Their socialisation of being raised with the feminine cultural expectations means they seem to be able to handle situations with respect for others.

Unlike their male counterparts who are gunning for the legal erosion of womens boundaries.

Back to the women who support trans rights, if you do see the conflict between single sex excluding transwomen and mixed sex excluding many women, what is your solution to this?

Absolutely, Wellies.

I honestly believe that people who have accepted a belief in the concept of gender do not realise quite how much those of us who don't are being expected to change our speech and the way we talk about our own beliefs, how often a very simple statement or word is jumped on as being heretical.

Yes.

The rules are inconsistently applied because this is a power grab. Some people are allowed to speak freely, make mistakes and say verboten things. They are 'queering' discourse and being bold.

Other people are fascist scum, bigots, and terfs who deserve to be punched.

We have had a transwoman stand onstage at an event and openly call for terfs to be punched in the face. Politicians stand grinning beneath a sign that says 'decapitate terfs'. Smoke bombs, physical attacks, death threats, rape threats, pilloried and smeared by politicians, media figures and the police.

The crime of women being called 'terfs'?

Refusing to use certain pronouns. Refusing to agree that people can or have changed sex. Refusing to stop wearing pussy hats or talking about breastfeeding or asking for single sex services for rape victims.

Basically, refusing to be coercively controlled.

Exactly! All the research we have shows that when women draw attention to their sex at work eg through pronouns it has an adverse effect

but TW being male don’t care about that. They just expect women to make things worse for themselves so that men feel better

and wasn’t it ever thus?

Women have lost jobs, friends, family members, many of us have lost faith in out society, politics, media, police, justice system, and academia.

All of this for not being willing to submit, toe the line, mouth the mantras, use the proscribed words, be quiet, use the nice pronouns, let the special men into our spaces, our sports, our groups.

Throughout this we've argued with data, research, evidence, mostly politely although I admit a bit sweary.

So yes, its a wee bit absurd to have people still now telling us we are not being 'welcoming' or nice enough.

Anyone asking the balaclava wearing spittle flecked lads who terrorise and heckle women meetings to be nicer and more welcoming?

Or is it just us expected to be everyone's mums, again?

And 'mummy' in the worst, most powerless and vile sense that MNetters spend a lot of time resisting, based on poor boundaries and other people's poor behaviour. The kind of downtrodden mummy who looks selflessly after everyone but has no needs of her own. Who eats last from the scraps after ensuring everyone else is fed. Who has no internal life or desires or function beyond providing for baby. Who isn't a person, is a walking service unit. Who is there to lose constantly so that others may win. And does this gladly with a smile on her face.

It's the warped way a very young child sees Mummy; anyone sustaining this very, very grim view of women past very early childhood has a problem. And Mummy needs a firm talking to about learning about boundaries and not enabling bloody awful abusive behaviour. The relationships board will provide her with tough love and a lot of support.

Passing does not make your partner a man. biology does. What you see as respect is actually a trojan horse for an ideology which I and most others find dangerous and disrespectful. Individualism can only take us so far. Your partner's desire to be a man does not trump everyone else's needs.

@Josette77 With all due respect, I'm not sure trans men will ever feel supported by people who insist on calling them women.

This comment sums up for me the way your partner has been manipulated by this insistence that language and 'respect for pronouns' is so important.

It means nothing, does it, that I say I would stand up for your partner's rights, that I am terrified at the thought of how vulnerable women are making themselves when they change their sex marker to male because it makes them feel 'seen as they truly are' or whatever reason - it's all sparkles and rainbows and acceptance - no thought of when things go wrong, of when they are knocked unconscious and end up getting the wrong treatment for their female body or are arrested on holiday and find themselves being thrown in a cell with a bunch of men.

All that matters is that I say he not she. Do you think the people who dutifully validate your partner's 'male identity' actually care? Will they be there if things ever do go wrong? It's all performative and superficial, done to make them feel great about themselves. And it doesn't matter how much you chastise or try to guilt trip. I will still say she and I will still be there for all women, no matter how they identify.

If your partner truly passes as a man @Josette77, why would there be any danger of them being misgendered by the women here?

I understand on the individual level a person who does not want the reality of lesbianism being female exclusively attracted to females to be discussed as it interferes with their self definition of chosen and preferred sex.

But it's because of individuals wanting to set aside 'genitals' that as a lesbian (a homosexual female, I've pretty much abandoned the term lesbian due to genderist harassment) I'm pressured to 'learn to cope' with providing sex to men who wish to identify as lesbians and train myself to ignore their physical reality. And told I'm shameful and to be correctively raped or kerb stomped if I resist this abusive batshit. And that I'm being homophobic if I state that a person is a man however he wishes me to pretend otherwise.

Individual people's distressed feelings are not a reason to enable this kind of abuse and harm to others. Appeals to care about the feelings of one person require the feelings of others to be worthless and subordinated.

It's a trojan horse, as PP says.

This is a really interesting discussion that does seem to have been slightly derailed by a person who isn't even posting (Josette's partner!). I just wanted to say that it's not really about how that particular transman passes at the supermarket or at the dentist... but if they went to prison, I would be fighting hard to ensure they did NOT go to a male prison.

Nice well-socialised women may accept that the transman passes....but I assure you that male prisoners will NOT uphold that polite fiction. A transman would be at huge risk in a male prison, and that's why they go to female prisons regardless of how well they pass.

it's all sparkles and rainbows and acceptance - no thought of when things go wrong, of when they are knocked unconscious and end up getting the wrong treatment for their female body or are arrested on holiday and find themselves being thrown in a cell with a bunch of men

exactly @Wellies54

weve all been through that toddler stage of them insisting they were a dog. I love to encourage imaginative play, but I’m not taking them to the vet if they start running a temperature.

This insistence on being kind…. Maybe it’s my ND thinking, I understand the social concept of white lies. I can even manage them if I’m concentrating….but how the fuck is a huge and foreseeably risky thing like THAT in any way kind?

i strive to be civil, compassionate, reasonable but I’m really not sure about kindness.

Bolleauxxxx · Yesterday 21:14

+ +But my issue is with those who would present that as evidence that the entire trans female population is harmful and dangerous which is untrue. + +

i don’t think I’ve ever seen the assertion that all are predators on here. And I’ve lurked a loooong time.

I agree, many posters go out of their way to qualify posts on the subject by saying, for instance, "Not all, but a sizeable subset." If the prison statistics are accurate and 48% of transw prisoners are in prison for violent and sexual offences against women and children, isn't there a certain inference to be drawn?

But all that aside, there I'd no subset of men who have a qualifying pass into women's spaces. Not your lovely gay friend, not your transwoman friend. This is of course what women will focus on - there is no subset of men who can come in because men, as a demographic group, are excluded for good reason and we don't have to submit to emotional blackmail to change that, even if you think it's super mean.

Josette77 · Yesterday 22:19

I believe transitioning is typically the treatment with the best outcomes for trans people.

Can In ask what has led you to believe that? There's a wealth of evidence from a large number of studies, which show the exact opposite to be the case. There have been stories linked to men and women, who very much regretted having surgery, as well as reports that, managed by talking therapy, about 80% of people who think that they are trans, when young, will grow out of it and grow into adults, accepting their sex.

Just FYI the Reddit dweebs are watching this thread.

I'm sure they are. Enjoy lads!

"Anyone educated" <snort> 😂

@Josette77 I want to attempt to answer a question you asked:

”I guess I'm wondering how people see this improving? Do trans people have to no longer exist in order for people to feel safe"?”

For me, there are two significant parts of modern transactivism that I object to and I will first comment on each and how I think the situation could be improved. Then I will address your second question separately.

Firstly, I object to the lobby that has influenced the medical profession to move from safe medical practices for children (watchful waiting) to unsafe treatment protocols (affirmation, puberty blockers, mastectomies, cross sex hormones).

There needs to be a return to evidence based medicine and bodies like WPATH which is largely a lobby group, need to acknowledge that fact and the fact that they are unable to present an unbiased view. You wouldn’t expect those with uncured anorexia to develop and lead medical groups creating treatment plans for anorexia patents and those whose gender dysphoria is unresolved to the point where they felt the need to undergo medical transition should not be creating and pushing treatment plans for those with gender dysphoria.

Secondly, I reject the current transactivist demand that men who claim they are women are actually women and should automatically have unfettered access to all women’s spaces and be treated as women in all circumstances.

That situation could easily be improved by an acceptance that, while those men would prefer not to be men and would rather not use men’s spaces, that doesn’t mean they are women and should have access to women’s spaces. If they are uncomfortable in men’s spaces, then they need to campaign for their own, separate spaces, as women and disabled people have done before them.

As for ”Do trans people have to no longer exist in order for people to feel safe"?”

That word exist always strikes me as odd. People can, within reasonable limits, change their bodies as they wish. They can also claim an identity that is in conflict with reality without making any physical changes.

I can’t stop people’s from doing either of those things, and their existence doesn’t affect me or make me feel unsafe as long as they don’t demand “rights” that impinge on mine.

While men who claim they are women are demanding access to women’s spaces and the powers that be are enabling them to enter those spaces (and in particular try to ostracize women who object) then THAT is what makes me feel unsafe. So those who transition (and those whose internal feelings cause them to claim they are trans) don’t need to stop existing.

They do need to stop insisting that they should be treated as if they were the opposite sex and come back to a more realistic position where it’s accepted that they wish they were a different sex, but that there are some times when they understand that sex matters and in those circumstances and spaces, it needs to be acknowledged that they should either be accommodated with their own sex or in separate spaces.

There's a wealth of evidence from a large number of studies, which show the exact opposite to be the case

Do you have any sources @SinnerBoy@SinnerBoy? Not trying to catch you out I'm genuinely interested

The discussion about crime statistics is interesting as well in the context of the post (sorry can't find it now) about people liking to follow rules. I can't recall this very well as I studied Feminism many moons ago, but I think there's an argument that women aren't just more law-abiding then men, they're also more 'rule-bound' generally, be that due to nature, nurture or a mix. So when institutions like the police appear to back the position of TRAs, I suspect that pushes many women into complying.

I think there is an inference to be drawn, but it’s easy to assume lazily that the inference is that 48% of TWs are violent or abusive. I don’t think that is true; the subset of TWs who are in prison are not likely to be representative of all TWs. So it would not surprise me if someone skimming through this thread assumed you were saying that TWs are all terribly violent and abusive, even though that is absolutely not what you said.

All that stat shows is that a very high proportion of criminals who ID as trans are sex offenders.

That is instructive, but it in no way demonstrates that 'all TWs are violent or abusive', of course.

Perhaps the problems are exacerbated by people reacting to certain words or discussions without properly reading/listening. Some people consider any discussion at all of transwomen in relation to sex offences, for example, is 'transphobic'. I'm not being hyperbolic, people have quite literally said one shouldn't talk about this issue at all, not ask questions, not quote stats, not speak on the subject. For fear of somehow triggering 'transphobia'.

This is how we end up with a 'sacred caste' - a group that is considered untouchable. And if that's a group one can identify into, the risks are probably very clear, yes?

That is a surprise.

And are the Dweebs enjoying the discussion?

Has this thread stimulated an equivalent debate there about the reasons why some women would throw their daughters under a bus in order to pander to a man who claims he’s a woman and chooses to compete in women’s sporting competitions?