Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

"I can't follow the thought process of someone who simplifies being trans down to this".

No one does.

"I don't believe a man can become a woman, but I believe Transwomen are Transwomen".

As do many on here. But the issue is that the vast majority of progressives think transwomen are women. And moreover, that anyone disagreeing with this is evil.

"Again, it appears women on here want trans people to disappear which will never happen".

It appears just like the first sentence that you love using strawmen.

"I guess I'm wondering how people see this improving? Do trans people have to no longer exist in order for people to feel safe"?

And again.

"No you can't tell a predator from a non predator based on anything other than they are a predator".

Males are far more likely to be than females.

"Being trans is one part of a person. Not the whole person".

Oh but it is, hence the argument that rejecting transwomen are women means denying trans people their humanity, their existence.

With all due respect, I'm not sure trans men will ever feel supported by people who insist on calling them women.

I don't believe in compelled speech. I was a Jordan Peterson supporter, I live in Toronto too. From a legal standpoint I'm in agreement.

On a personal level though it seems unnecessary to call him/her just to make your point.

I see you have gone through my statements point by point but I can't see where I have disagreed with you?

I don't believe Transwomen are biological women.

Can you respond to what I've said without that premise?

And while mocking my questions, you don't seem to have given them any actual response?

A very clear and observant summary. Thanks Nepeta.

On a personal level though it seems unnecessary to call him/her just to make your point

i probably wouldn’t tbh. Not would many on here in some settings.

but I want to reserve the right to forget sometimes without becoming a social pariah. I’m neurodivergent with a shocking poor working memory. It takes a huge amount of my already stretched processing power.

i want my ND kid not to be ostracised by friends when they inevitably screw up on new names or neopronouns.

likwise my great aunty who has dementia and can’t for the life of her fathom what’s going on.

i also want to be able to call a male rapist or a sports cheat he. And I want the press to be permitted to do so.

this was never about anyone’s lovely trans friends or lover. It’s about unintended consequences fucking over people who don’t have a voice.

You are, I believe, the first person on this thread to mention anyone’s vagina. I think that’s because no-one else has any interest in your partner’s vagina.

I actually understand the feeling that women here are dismissive of trans people. There is a degree of frustration with activists who come here and it becomes clear that they are not engaging in good faith discussion; this happens over and over again, and it is hardly surprising that some people’s responses are robust.

I’m occasionally uncomfortable because a few people assume that most transwomen are AGP, and I don’t like the possibility that that might include my son. But actually, when I read carefully what women here are saying, overwhelmingly they are compassionate towards all trans-identified people who are respectful towards women. That is, those who don’t enter women’s spaces, and don’t parody womanhood, and don’t exhibit worrying behaviour that demeans women. But they don’t accept trans ideology that says TWAW and that women should welcome men into their spaces and fawn over them.

As someone who is also ND I understand that.

I don't think most people care if you accidentally say a different pronoun as long as it's not meant in a malicious way.

I will say I think an ongoing theme with these issues is people not feeling heard on either side.

I think a lot of people feel silenced. It's a good reminder about the importance of listening to eachother.

Referring to my partner as a woman and a lesbian is referring to their genitalia.

I'm glad you feel women on here are compassionate to trans people. I do not share that sentiment, partially because of the above.

I share the same beliefs as you, so it seems beyond me having a trans partner and you having a trans daughter we are not so very different.

I don't think most people care if you accidentally say a different pronoun as long as it's not meant in a malicious way.

My experience is a little different. I have been shouted at and called bigoted because I didn’t apologise for using a pronoun that was based on the sex of the person in question. I was attempting to avoid using any pronoun, but (also ND) I failed. I do not consider that using the correct sex-based pronoun is something that requires an apology, because I am not a member of the religion that requires ‘preferred’ gender-identity-based pronouns. If an apology is required for so-called ‘mis-gendering’ then that is compelled speech, equivalent to requiring someone to say “Amen” to someone else’s prayer.

I do not have a trans daughter. I have a son who wears dresses and appears to see himself as a woman. I strongly object to my reality, as the father of my son, being denied. People who are not in a similar situation probably have no idea of the distress and confusion this causes, and compelled speech makes it worse. Can anyone explain to me why his feelings of ‘womanliness’ are important but my knowledge of his physical reality and our shared history as father and son are unimportant?

I'm very sorry that happened to you. That must have been quite scary to be yelled at.

Im sorry this stuff drives a wedge in many families.

Referring to my partner as a woman and a lesbian is referring to their genitalia.

Not really. It's referring to their sex, not their body.

That sounds incredibly hard and I hear your sadness and pain. It must feel in some ways like you are losing a child, who you clearly deeply love.

I think your shared history is incredibly important. You have raised a child who feels comfortable enough around you to share how they feel. That is something to be very proud of as a father.

I hope you will be able to get support for your grief and that you both will be able to feel heard and respected by eachother. It sounds like at the core there is a lot of love between you.

I respectfully disagree with the need to refer to him this way.

And I respectfully disagree that I should lie about someone's biological sex. Who is being respectful to most people?

"I see you have gone through my statements point by point but I can't see where I have disagreed with you"?

You seriously cannot see that? I am not sure what else I can do then. I don't even believe that, unless you are being purposefully obtuse.

"I don't believe Transwomen are biological women".

I didn't say you did, I said the issue is that many think they are women. So this is yet another strawman from you.

"Can you respond to what I've said without that premise"?

Given that that isn't my premise, no.

"And while mocking my questions, you don't seem to have given them any actual response"?

Hard to give an actual response to points that are strawmen and logically flawed.

Are you me? Sounds exactly like my thought process.

Can you tell me where we disagree then?
I'm not sure I understand what beliefs I have that you disagree with?

It isn't. A person's sex is clear from their secondary sexual characteristics.. we don't have to think about what's in someone's pants to know if they're a man or woman.

I respect your opinion..

I don't think it's necessarily helpful in opening up these conversations to include other women, but you have every right to feel as you do.

My partner is a transman who passes. No one would ever think he's not a male unless you saw him naked.

*Referring to my partner as a woman and a lesbian is referring to their genitalia."

I don't get it. There's a whole female body involved here, not just 'genitalia'. Ovaries, a womb, a female response to medications, female height and build and hand size and browbone and jawline, the experience of being born a girl. And anyone referring to your partner as a man isn't 'referring to male genitalia'.

OK, sorry, I've reread and i can see that referring to you as a lesbian couple might involve thinking about genitalia. I prefer a decent privacy over anyone's love life bar my own, though, so hadn't got that far.

With all due respect, I'm not sure trans men will ever feel supported by people who insist on calling them women.

I wonder if you see all support as being predicated on agreement? It seems that you are unable to consider that women can disagree and still be supportive of each other.

Mothers are very used to disagreement while based in and maintaining a positive sense of regard and general supportive and caring feelings.

Some women would no more 'affirm' a trans identity than they would affirm an anorexic's claim to be fat.

I think it' easy to get bogged down in words - who's using what pronouns, correctly or incorrectly, respect or disrespect for identity, focus or not focus on genitals.

What are we arguing for? - I think we are arguing for the right to our own beliefs. My belief is that there are males and females. Some males and some females believe they have a particular identity which sets them apart from others. I would respect an individual if they were known to me, who believed this, up to a point, but I make no pretence of being any more interested than in the deeper spiritual feelings of my religious friends. I have never pretended to believe in God to spare their feelings and I don't think they would expect me to.

We are also arguing for women's rights.

If most people in this discussion are in agreement that women should have single sex spaces and other rights based on our sex, (which includes transmen), I think most of the disagreement is about the former point - which is a really important one. I know we may be in different countries, but I assume most of us are in liberal societies where we have the right to hold our own beliefs and express opinions freely. I honestly believe that people who have accepted a belief in the concept of gender do not realise quite how much those of us who don't are being expected to change our speech and the way we talk about our own beliefs, how often a very simple statement or word is jumped on as being heretical.

There are many reasons why women are so complacent about this, but another which just occurred to me is that some people love following rules. They love the security of knowing what to say, the correct opinion to have, and even more, they love to see others chastised for slipping up when they have been praised for getting it right. They have now been trained in the new ideas and language and have totally missed the opt out clause.