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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girls "left at mercy" of grooming gangs in Rochdale, England because of failings by senior police and council bosses, damning report says

289 replies

DerekFaker · 15/01/2024 10:22

No surprise to anyone on here, I would guess. Those poor girls.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67967919

Girl

Police left children at mercy of grooming gangs in Rochdale, report says

A review criticises a series of failed investigations by Greater Manchester Police in Rochdale.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67967919

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/01/2024 15:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 15:20

but to deny that the attacks on these girls wasn’t racially motivated in many cases is just denying fact, and the victim’s testimonies to boot.

Exactly.

The political capture of agencies in Rochdale was a critical issue. They failed to tackle the abuse because the fact that the Rochdale abusers were Asian or British Asian and the victims were White was considered to be politically sensitive. It was one of a number of reasons that contributed to their lack of action in protecting children. The same pattern has been replicated in other areas of the country.
Acknowledging this is not racist - nor does it mean that other ethnic groups are not child abusers. There must be no "sacred castes" - no groups of men (or women) who are exempt from scrutiny. Where there are specific racial aspects of abuse (the majority of the victims were white girls) then this must be acknowledged and tackled.
We repeatedly let children down by denying reality and it's shameful to see it happening on a feminist board.

nationallampoons · 17/01/2024 16:06

@Ereshkigalangcleg she copied and pasted one of my comments too.

I'm not walking on eggshells, and I don't care if I'm labelled as racist.

These are innocent children, they must be the priority. Why do they go for white teenage girls? What is the reasoning?

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 16:06

The Rochdale Case
2013 Parliamentary Report

Chief Presecutor for the Nirth West of England
Nazir Afzal reviewed tge case which lead to the prosecutions at that time.

If you read here, page 3 paragraph 3 d) it is clearly stated that the men involved were Asian or British Asian and the victims were white.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/search?q=About+publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf&tbm=ilp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiclNza5eSDAxVikCcCHeLIDscQv5AHegQIABAE" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=About+publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf&tbm=ilp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiclNza5eSDAxVikCcCHeLIDscQv5AHegQIABAE

Girls "left at mercy" of grooming gangs in Rochdale, England because of failings by senior police and council bosses, damning report says
ResisterRex · 17/01/2024 16:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 15:57

Just to note that @AdamRyan has copied their ridiculous post slandering most of us as racist onto a context free thread as evidence that GC women are white supremacists.

Shocked I tell you. Shocked.

muddyford · 17/01/2024 16:09

'Asian' is mealy-mouthed too. No Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Indonesian etc among the criminals.

Shoppingfiend · 17/01/2024 16:10

SidewaysOtter · 15/01/2024 10:52

It’s all very well saying sorry, but WHY did this happen? Were the girls ignored because of their backgrounds (troubled and /or poorer backgrounds), or because they were female? Or did no-one want to point a finger at the perpetrators for fear of being called racist for acknowledging their attitudes to women and girls?

Edited

Both I would say.

pronounsbundlebundle · 17/01/2024 16:11

ResisterRex · 17/01/2024 16:07

Shocked I tell you. Shocked.

Well I'm not shocked either but surely it's 'not in the spirit' and therefore breaks talk guidelines? Also I thought threads about threads were banned.

ResisterRex · 17/01/2024 16:14

I'm sure it's NITS, yes

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 16:17

I see tgat link did not work. I was trying to link this:

House of Commons Home Affairs Committee
Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming

Second Report of Session 2013–14

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/01/2024 16:20

Shoppingfiend · 17/01/2024 16:10

Both I would say.

Both, plus social workers being overloaded, lack of effective multi agency working and the girls being seen as stroppy and "responsible for their own misfortune" rather than as victims.
What AR doesn't realise when they spout their ill informed allegations is that some of us were working in the field at the time. In the light of what happened, there was a lot of multi agency training across the country highlighting the institutional flaws and demanding more effective multi agency working. Similar patterns were being seen in other areas. It wasn't just race but race was an important factor and not just in Rochdale.

Beowulfa · 17/01/2024 16:24

I was just about to post the link to the 2013 parliamentary report that ScrollingLeaves has above. The conclusion of the section on race (page 57) reads:

There is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation. It is a vile crime which is perpetrated by a small number of individuals, and abhorred by the vast majority, from every ethnic group. However, evidence presented to us suggests that there is a model of localised grooming of Pakistani-heritage men targeting young White girls. This must be acknowledged by official agencies, who we were concerned to hear in some areas of particular community tension, had reportedly been slow to draw attention to the issue for fear of affecting community cohesion. The condemnation from those communities of this vile crime should demonstrate that there is no excuse for tip-toeing around this issue. It is important that police, social workers and others be able to raise their concerns freely, without fear of being labelled racist. The communities that these offenders come from must also play their part and do much more to acknowledge, report and tackle the issue. In particular community leaders and Imams have a vital role to play.

AdamRyan is not posting in good faith when labelling posters racist for referring to official reports into this particular set of convictions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 16:31

Well I'm not shocked either but surely it's 'not in the spirit' and therefore breaks talk guidelines? Also I thought threads about threads were banned.

I'm pretty sure they are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 16:35

The political capture of agencies in Rochdale was a critical issue. They failed to tackle the abuse because the fact that the Rochdale abusers were Asian or British Asian and the victims were White was considered to be politically sensitive. It was one of a number of reasons that contributed to their lack of action in protecting children. The same pattern has been replicated in other areas of the country.

This. These are facts which have been established multiple times. The only reason people like to pretend they are in dispute is because they don't think people should be allowed to consider them. They need to be considered.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 16:38

This is a 2017 report quoting the Chief Prosecutor in that Rochdale case, Nazir Afzal.

Manchester Evening News

Rochdale grooming prosecutor Nazir Afzal calls on Muslims to 'stop blaming victims of child sex abuse'

By Katherine Bainbridgs 2 July 2017

On the eve of a new documentary about the scandal Mr Afzal has written an article criticising the attitude of some of his fellow Muslims towards the issue of grooming

The lawyer who brought the Rochdale grooming gang to justice says Muslim communities ‘must do more to fight a cancer of violent misogyny’.

Nazir Afzal initiated the prosecutions of the sex trafficking gang after he became Chief Crown Prosecutor in the north west, which eventually led to the jailing of nine gang members.

He overturned a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute and asked police to look again at the issue of grooming in Rochdale.

On the eve of a new documentary about the scandal Mr Afzal has written an article criticising the attitude of some of his fellow Muslims towards the issue of grooming, saying ‘too many people blame the victims rather than the perpetrators’.

Writing for the Mail on Sunday Mr Afzal said: “There are parts of our country now where violent misogyny is equally accepted and even celebrated. What worries me is that these are largely Asian areas with little appetite in the community to do anything about it.

“There’s no escaping the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in localised street grooming of vulnerable young girls. Our jails are filling up with Muslim prisoners and yet the crimes they’re committing have become a taboo subject.”

Mr Afzal says he has tried to engage with Muslim audiences to talk about how to deal with these crimes, but doing so is ‘frustratingly difficult’.

He added that there is ‘sterling work’ being carried out in the Asian community to challenge misogynistic views, ‘but too frequently those groups making a real difference exist without much support from the wider community’.

He added that ‘communities hold the key’ and has called on Muslims to ‘help break a cycle of ignorance and stop it from happening in the first place’.

“It sickens me that there are people in the Asian community who don’t want women to be empowered, they don’t want women to support each other and would prefer women to be oppressed and do what men want them to do,” he said.

“Forcing the Muslim community to do more to deal with these problems has to be the starting point to drive grooming gangs out of existence.”

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rochdale-grooming-prosecutor-nazir-afzal-13271237

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:03

Grandmasswag · 17/01/2024 15:10

AdamRyan I understand the sensitivity and that commentary can slip into racism but no one making sweeping generalisation or suggesting that all Asian men are groomers or anything, which I think is what you’re trying to take out of what you’ve read.

I think it’s more helpful to think of the victims race (in this case white) being a key factor. Many were raped by men of all different nationalities/ ethnicities but to deny that the attacks on these girls wasn’t racially motivated in many cases is just denying fact, and the victim’s testimonies to boot. If it’s not where then are the Asian victims? Given that it’s a very multicultural city. The whole point was that these men wouldn’t/ couldn’t treat women from their own communities this way. They viewed white girls as dirty slags who were asking for it. Why don’t you actually listen to the victims? The file on 4 interviews are a good start.

I don't think there is evidence the victims ethnicity was a key factor. The victims class, sex and general vulnerability were key factors.

In any case that is not how the debate has been framed. It's been framed as "racism against white people" and an issue caused by "Pakistani grooming gangs" to quote our beloved home secretary.

I'd love a debate about how to protect vulnerable girls from groomers, just one that's not full of racism and prejudice.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 15:57

Just to note that @AdamRyan has copied their ridiculous post slandering most of us as racist onto a context free thread as evidence that GC women are white supremacists.

I was replying to OPs question and various people asserting "they never saw white nationalist views on here". OP specifically asked for posts, not assertions. Maybe take it up with her for starting a goady TAAT

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:06

I'm not a white nationalist @AdamRyan any more than I'm sure you aren't really a spittle flecked misogynist.

Beowulfa · 17/01/2024 17:08

I'd love a debate about how to protect vulnerable girls from groomers, just one that's not full of racism and prejudice.

But the groomers in this case were full of racism and prejudice. That's the point. We are doing the girls a disservice by pretending uncomfortable things don't happen.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:11

Beowulfa · 17/01/2024 16:24

I was just about to post the link to the 2013 parliamentary report that ScrollingLeaves has above. The conclusion of the section on race (page 57) reads:

There is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation. It is a vile crime which is perpetrated by a small number of individuals, and abhorred by the vast majority, from every ethnic group. However, evidence presented to us suggests that there is a model of localised grooming of Pakistani-heritage men targeting young White girls. This must be acknowledged by official agencies, who we were concerned to hear in some areas of particular community tension, had reportedly been slow to draw attention to the issue for fear of affecting community cohesion. The condemnation from those communities of this vile crime should demonstrate that there is no excuse for tip-toeing around this issue. It is important that police, social workers and others be able to raise their concerns freely, without fear of being labelled racist. The communities that these offenders come from must also play their part and do much more to acknowledge, report and tackle the issue. In particular community leaders and Imams have a vital role to play.

AdamRyan is not posting in good faith when labelling posters racist for referring to official reports into this particular set of convictions.

Edited

Me having an opinion that disagrees with yours is not "posting in bad faith"
The Daily Mail were forced to correct Bravermans article about "Pakistani Groomers" for being inaccurate, after am IPSO investigation. That's because there is no evidence to support the view that grooming gangs are a problem of particular ethnicities. Yet still we get screeds of racism posted on these threads as "fact". I find it extremely offensive.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/28/braverman-ethnicity-child-grooming-gangs-false-mail-on-sunday

Braverman’s claim about ethnicity of grooming gangs was false, regulator rules

Mail on Sunday issues correction over opinion piece by home secretary claiming ‘almost all’ child grooming gangs were British-Pakistani

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/28/braverman-ethnicity-child-grooming-gangs-false-mail-on-sunday

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:11

In any case that is not how the debate has been framed. It's been framed as "racism against white people" and an issue caused by "Pakistani grooming gangs" to quote our beloved home secretary.

That framing, whether anyone thinks it's true or not, has zero bearing on the facts of the case, which is that Pakistani grooming gangs operated and apparently still operate in Rochdale. And it's also known that similar gangs operate in other towns, the most notable being Rotherham in South Yorkshire, where a scandal unfolded in a very similar way.

Grandmasswag · 17/01/2024 17:13

I don't think there is evidence the victims ethnicity was a key factor. The victims class, sex and general vulnerability were key factors.

Where are the victims of other ethnicities then? You’re not surely suggesting that only white girls in northern cities are vulnerable and working class ?

pickledandpuzzled · 17/01/2024 17:13

@AdamRyan I really think your preconceptions are blinding you to the conversation happening here. I’m disappointed.

Have you been on the AMA by the young victim of a grooming gang? Obviously she’s only talking about what she saw, heard and experienced.

But no one is making sweeping statements about all grooming gangs, or all men in certain cultures.

Only that there is - clearly and evidently- a cultural influence on certain situations that needs to be considered to best protect these vulnerable youngsters.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:15

Grooming gangs operate everywhere. Men can rape women and girls with impunity. Rich powerful men exploit young girls for sex by grooming with money and drugs. Men form gangs to do sexual crimes all the time.

There is no evidence Pakistani men do this more than other men. That's why it is racist.

The "multiculturalism gone wrong" and "lack of integration", "patriarchal attitudes" are all features of Great Replacement Theory/white supremacy. If you don't agree with it, don't join in with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:18

I think your framing of people's perfectly reasonable, factual posts is utterly bizarre, @AdamRyan. You're very much demonstrating why these abused children were ignored for so long. Knee jerk accusations of racism just for discussing the established facts of these cases.

Grandmasswag · 17/01/2024 17:18

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:15

Grooming gangs operate everywhere. Men can rape women and girls with impunity. Rich powerful men exploit young girls for sex by grooming with money and drugs. Men form gangs to do sexual crimes all the time.

There is no evidence Pakistani men do this more than other men. That's why it is racist.

The "multiculturalism gone wrong" and "lack of integration", "patriarchal attitudes" are all features of Great Replacement Theory/white supremacy. If you don't agree with it, don't join in with it.

No one on this thread has said anything of this sort. You clearly have an agenda.