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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girls "left at mercy" of grooming gangs in Rochdale, England because of failings by senior police and council bosses, damning report says

289 replies

DerekFaker · 15/01/2024 10:22

No surprise to anyone on here, I would guess. Those poor girls.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67967919

Girl

Police left children at mercy of grooming gangs in Rochdale, report says

A review criticises a series of failed investigations by Greater Manchester Police in Rochdale.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67967919

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:41

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 17:38

AR:
I don't think there is evidence the victims ethnicity was a key factor. The victims class, sex and general vulnerability were key factors.

Imo, there is a culture clash that sees unguarded young girls who are free to
be picked up by by men as belonging to a different ‘other’ set of values which are arguably ‘lower’ than their own.

These men’s own sisters, daughters, and cousins would not have been allowed out of their guardianship and control to be treated this way.

That’s why Nazir Afzar was pointing out how it is wrong to blame the victims rather than vice versa - assuming as he was this attitude on the part of these men.

Being female, young, vulnerable and working class must have added to these girls being abused in the way they were. But female, young, working class Asian girls do not seem to have been targeted in these cases. Perhaps they would have been if they were free to be out and about where these men were waiting on the lookout, but it is part of their culture that they were not.

So certain young, vulnerable, teenage girls having ‘white’ values around romance and boyfriends made them targets for these rapist gangs of men, who completely despised them but nevertheless groomed, drugged, and raped them.

Or, there was not the ease of access to girls from other backgrounds.

I'd like to know more about the ethnicities of girls in care in these communities and what other ACEs were at play before I'd say they were targeted for being white.

That's why the Samantha Morton podcast is so relevant. The way girls in care are viewed and treated is shocking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:42

From the Metro article:

A senior police officer admitted his force ignored the Rotherham child abuse ring for fear of increasing ‘racial tensions’, it has been reported.

The admission was made after the police watchdog upheld six complaints against South Yorkshire Police by a former child victim, according to The Times.

The chief inspector is said to have described the abuse as ‘P* shagging’ that had been ‘going on’ for 30 years in a document quoted by the newspaper, adding: ‘With it being Asians, we can’t afford for this to be coming out.’

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:46

Oh, just read again and I think we are saying the same thing.

White male sex abusers also target vulnerable white girls and also groom them. But I feel as a society those crimes then play into all the factors that stop us prosecuting rapists (she made it up, she wanted drugs, can't ruin an innocent man's life, NAMALT).
It's easier to make out Pakistani groomers are somehow a different problem than tackle child abuse and the issues that underpin that.

What I find interesting is the report doesn't mention ethnicity as a factor, yet straight away its the heart of the discussion. It's such a dogwhistle now and does a massive injustice to former, current and future victims.

LoobiJee · 17/01/2024 17:50

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:33

😂
If the cap fits.....

This being the cap that fits:

But very much “on brand” for that particular poster - who consistently and repeatedly, across multiple threads, misrepresents what posters have said”
**

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 17:51

‘Or, there was not the ease of access to girls from other backgrounds’.

As I pointed out - because their culture prevented it.

Hence why I was contrasting a clash of cultures:

One culture that believes heavily in romance and free love, ( particularly longed for by troubled girls in care no doubt who are extra vulnerable because of it); the other that keeps young girls within their family, away from boys and men, until they get married if possible. This particular culture may sometimes find the former ‘modern’ one unpure and wrong and use this as an excuse for their own base instincts.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:42

From the Metro article:

A senior police officer admitted his force ignored the Rotherham child abuse ring for fear of increasing ‘racial tensions’, it has been reported.

The admission was made after the police watchdog upheld six complaints against South Yorkshire Police by a former child victim, according to The Times.

The chief inspector is said to have described the abuse as ‘P* shagging’ that had been ‘going on’ for 30 years in a document quoted by the newspaper, adding: ‘With it being Asians, we can’t afford for this to be coming out.’

Is that "wokeness" or is it not wanting to provoke riots, vigilante killings and p**i-bashing, all of which are a risk for these types of crimes?

E.g.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/bijan-ebrahimi-vigilante-murder_uk_595cae0ce4b05c37bb80bba8/

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-05-26/oldham-riots-looking-back-twenty-years-ago

https://www.bigissuenorth.com/news/2023/02/bradford-12s-win-for-self-defence-principle/#close

There's alot more to avoiding racial tensions than "not wanting to look racist".

The 40-Plus Times Police Failed Disabled Refugee Set Alight And Beaten To Death In Bristol

Bijan Ebrahim was beaten to death after 7 years of failures.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/bijan-ebrahimi-vigilante-murder_uk_595cae0ce4b05c37bb80bba8

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:53

Is that "wokeness"

I didn't suggest that it was. I merely evidenced the fact, that was being denied by you and several other posters, that the race angle was considered by the police and was a factor in their lack of action.

nepeta · 17/01/2024 17:56

The way to try to establish if a particular group of men, defined by whatever demographic variable you wish to look at (race, ethnicity, religion, age, class, cultural values) is over-represented in mass grooming would be to ask if men from all the different demographic groups groom girls at the same percentages, or if some groups show higher percentages.

Because in the UK white men are the majority of men, it would be extremely unlikely not to find that they would also be the numerical majority of the groomers, even if white men were no more likely to groom than other men, and even if they were less likely to groom than other men.

So absolute numbers are not that informative, because even if, say, 2% of all the different groups of men groomed young girls, there would be lots more cases where white men were found to do the grooming because there are so many more white men.

This means that we should look at percentages of men who do grooming out of the size of each sub-population of men. Are those percentages the same? Do some sub-populations show much higher percentages, and if this is the case, what is the reason?

There's not complete data on this, because not all cases (or perhaps even most cases) have come to the attention of the police and also because the police may arrest men from different demographic groups at different rates (for many reasons, including political power of the possible culprits, racism by the police, tribal identification by the police etc.).

So what we have is data on cases which have come to the attention of the police, which we should gather and analyse while keeping in mind its limitations.

As to the Rochdale case, I read the reports on it some years ago, and it was clear from those reports that in that community the grooming gangs largely consisted of men of Pakistani origin. The situation elsewhere might well be different.

One comment made by someone in the report (or other material I read at the time) was that certain industries (takeaways, taxi services) lend themselves more to 'mass' grooming as the work takes place often late at night, taxi drivers develop networks of possible clients, takeaways can be used for organising etc. And at Rochdale these industries had predominantly Pakistani workers and owners.

But nobody suggested this as the main reason.

The report addressed the sexism of the police. Some officers viewed the young girls as simply prostitutes and didn't respond to their complaints, because they didn't view them as children in need of safeguarding.

There were also problems with the social work system. Some of the victims lived in care homes where the girls would be picked up after school by the groomers. These were particularly vulnerable children who were let down by the system.

I also recall being concerned with the way the police or local politicians, when addressing the problems, decided to communicate only with what they viewed as leaders of the local Muslim communities (as if we had two different countries or something similar to that, and as if the men they viewed as leaders of the 'other' country somehow could speak for all its 'citizens'). This kept all the Muslim women and girls unheard by the police, as one example of why I felt concern, so we may never have heard about them being groomed if that happened.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 17:57

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 17:51

‘Or, there was not the ease of access to girls from other backgrounds’.

As I pointed out - because their culture prevented it.

Hence why I was contrasting a clash of cultures:

One culture that believes heavily in romance and free love, ( particularly longed for by troubled girls in care no doubt who are extra vulnerable because of it); the other that keeps young girls within their family, away from boys and men, until they get married if possible. This particular culture may sometimes find the former ‘modern’ one unpure and wrong and use this as an excuse for their own base instincts.

Maybe, or maybe they would be perfectly happy raping and abusing any girls they thought they could get hold of, and not be caught.

There is an angle in criminology called "Routine Activity Theory" - a crime happens if there is an offender, a target and lack of a suitable guardian.

Maybe girls from other backgrounds were more likely to have "suitable guardians" (which can mean things like CCTV, a locked door or someone who would miss them, as well as an actual person acting as a guardian).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 17:58

This was a multi agency failing. The many people who contributed to it were variously:

Corrupt
Misogynistic
Racist
In favour of not rocking the boat
Self interested
Didn't care about poor girls
Negligent
Incompetent

And plenty of combinations of these.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 18:00

LoobiJee · 17/01/2024 17:50

This being the cap that fits:

But very much “on brand” for that particular poster - who consistently and repeatedly, across multiple threads, misrepresents what posters have said”
**

Or maybe consistently sees the same posters promoting racist and far right positions 🤔

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 18:00

I also recall being concerned with the way the police or local politicians, when addressing the problems, decided to communicate only with what they viewed as leaders of the local Muslim communities (as if we had two different countries or something similar to that, and as if the men they viewed as leaders of the 'other' country somehow could speak for all its 'citizens'). This kept all the Muslim women and girls unheard by the police, as one example of why I felt concern, so we may never have heard about them being groomed if that happened.

Yes that's a very good point.

pickledandpuzzled · 17/01/2024 18:07

Ooh several things. I’ll need to organise my thoughts instead of just spewing my irritation all over the board.

  1. People directly involved, those culpable, those working against it, and those who were victims, recognised a racial element to what was happening. Could that actually be a complex situation involving guardians, access etc? Yes. Does it mean race was irrelevant? Absolutely not. This situation arose in a specific context that was steeped in race. It can’t be discussed and therefore prevented in future if race isn’t raised.
  2. That guardian business smacks of victim blaming. You are blaming culturally western girls and families for having culturally western values that make them vulnerable to people who observe that difference.
  3. It’s been mentioned by a PP that this is not the only ethnic group to have organised trafficking- family groups are hugely prevalent in organised crime. There was a group of extended family in Glasgow, I believe, there are Albanian gangs, among many others. This thread is talking about Rochdale where the grooming gang was of Pakistani origin. You can’t prevent people discussing that under the guise of it being racism.

@AdamRyan you demonstrate a really fixed, analytical style which seems to start from one preconception and go on to identify tons of evidence to back up the preconception you started with. You knee jerk at things you are hyper focussed on.

That’s not how conversation works.

pickledandpuzzled · 17/01/2024 18:08

And the failure to record relevant information about criminals and victims is shocking.

TempestTost · 17/01/2024 18:09

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 17/01/2024 15:36

Look, I really don't have time for any of this right now, but I am willing to stand on a soap box and shout one thing:

Rapists and abusers are horrible!

I assumed we all knew that. So why do people bring out the smelling salts at the suggestion that rapists might also be racist? Yes, they are. White ones fetishise and abuse women from other races. So do all the others.

If you come from such a monocultural area that you've never heard men (particularly teenage boys) of all ethnicities sounding off about what they think of women from other ethnicities, that's your knowledge gap. Don't make it our problem.

I don't know why people feel this need to insist that sexually abusive men must be paragons of fairness and justice along all the other possible axes of oppression. I guess it's misogyny; if you don't truly see women as people, you'll remain convinced that a man can be a serial rapist and a kind, non-discriminatory pillar of the community. Obviously he might still respect everyone equally regardless of colour, creed, culture, nationality or disability!

Edited

I wonder if this kind of thinking comes out of the common "antiracist" idea that only white people can be racist? Maybe not a direct line of thinking, but some political progressives are very uncomfortable with the idea that there are other cultures and ethnicities that can be deeply racist.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 18:09

Loubelle70 · 16/01/2024 17:37

Thats exactly why.
Because the police risked the racist label and libel...so it continued and the poor girls suffered endlessly. Easier to dismiss the white girls than the asian grooming gangs

Here you go eresh - this is what I mean. Implying the police didn't act because they didn't want to be called racist - rather than acknowledging the difficulties of raised racial tensions.

There are plenty of groups out there just itching to have a reason to go and beat some brown people up. Just look at Tommy Robinsons stupid cenotaph protection ridiculousness in November. They barely need a pretext and in the 2000s in NW England the police were well aware of that.

pickledandpuzzled · 17/01/2024 18:11

Some conversations are difficult. It doesn’t mean you don’t have them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 18:12

Exactly. It's hardly going to stop people making capital, it just makes it look worse and makes more moderate people think they might have a point.

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 18:12

pickledandpuzzled · 17/01/2024 18:07

Ooh several things. I’ll need to organise my thoughts instead of just spewing my irritation all over the board.

  1. People directly involved, those culpable, those working against it, and those who were victims, recognised a racial element to what was happening. Could that actually be a complex situation involving guardians, access etc? Yes. Does it mean race was irrelevant? Absolutely not. This situation arose in a specific context that was steeped in race. It can’t be discussed and therefore prevented in future if race isn’t raised.
  2. That guardian business smacks of victim blaming. You are blaming culturally western girls and families for having culturally western values that make them vulnerable to people who observe that difference.
  3. It’s been mentioned by a PP that this is not the only ethnic group to have organised trafficking- family groups are hugely prevalent in organised crime. There was a group of extended family in Glasgow, I believe, there are Albanian gangs, among many others. This thread is talking about Rochdale where the grooming gang was of Pakistani origin. You can’t prevent people discussing that under the guise of it being racism.

@AdamRyan you demonstrate a really fixed, analytical style which seems to start from one preconception and go on to identify tons of evidence to back up the preconception you started with. You knee jerk at things you are hyper focussed on.

That’s not how conversation works.

OK. Conversation to me usually doesn't involve racism, and does involve expressing disgust for racist views. On here you have to "prove" it was racist (e.g. that stupid "white supremacy" thread). Or say nothing. In the real world I wouldn't be letting this shit go unchallenged either.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 18:15

It is never going to be acceptable that the police ignore the systematic sexual abuse of children because they are worried about inflaming racial tensions. It wasn't then, and it isn't now. And they have admitted that they did that in Rotherham.

LoobiJee · 17/01/2024 18:16

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 18:00

Or maybe consistently sees the same posters promoting racist and far right positions 🤔

Consistently and repeatedly, across multiple threads, misrepresents what posters have said.”

As you agreed, the cap fits.

I was tempted to add “and when the misrepresentations are pointed out, starts with the condescending emoji’s” but couldn’t be bothered.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 18:18

"Implying the police didn't act because they didn't want to be called racist - rather than acknowledging the difficulties of raised racial tensions."

Because that does seem to be what you're saying, @AdamRyan. That it's understandable that the police didn't act on the sexual abuse of thousands of poor white girls because of "the difficulties of raised racial tensions". I'm not sure how you can't see how awful that is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2024 18:20

Is it any wonder people look to figures on the far right, who undoubtedly exploit this, when this sort of mealy mouthed shit is what they get from "progressive" people?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/01/2024 18:21

AdamRyan · 17/01/2024 18:12

OK. Conversation to me usually doesn't involve racism, and does involve expressing disgust for racist views. On here you have to "prove" it was racist (e.g. that stupid "white supremacy" thread). Or say nothing. In the real world I wouldn't be letting this shit go unchallenged either.

Edited

Isn't that because you're only interested in the fight? In the slogan? In the argument?
Nuance and complexities seem to matter little - only of interest if they can be used as a 'stick" to beat those you disagree with? It's why there seems little coherence or progression in debates you get involved in on here. Tragedy that befalls children is only of interest if you can use it as a weapon against women you disapprove of (imo).

It's very frustrating which is why I rarely comment when you appear on a thread. It usually descends into shouty slogans and countless allegations against the bad women on here.
Maybe worth thinking about?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 17/01/2024 18:23

It doesn't only affect white girls, either. Can I get started on how girls in my town were married off at 16 with parental consent before they'd even got their GCSE results? To older men, naturally?

The minimum age for marriage has now been raised to 18, but it should have been raised 20 years ago.

Those girls deserved to be legally protected.