Sharron Davies in the Times

[Igneococcus]

Talking about a report from the Policy Exchange.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/83d04ca3-f655-4e8b-9cdf-62ef458c9541?shareToken=3285382a57e56778f2eeb93e02d65c1c

@Crankywiddershins it doesn’t make sense to sex test without also dope testing and that is an extremely invasive procedure as the official needs to be able to clearly observe the stream of urine exiting the athlete’s body. All elite athletes are used to this of course but I can’t see how this would ever be possible with Park Run, the cost alone would be prohibitive and no other casual non-affiliated races do any testing.

Mixed sex competition isn't the norm, has not been going on years and we do care.

This!

Mmm, I think you're right about the cake and eat it part. There are practical issues with testing people in a situation like that in a way that there aren't at the elite level where funding and systems exist to check on participants. But Parkrun still choose to provide so much data about times regardless, which essentially creates that wider competitive aspect. They want the benefits of doing that without having to do the work on fairness.

Worse still we’re told it’s still female sports even with the addition of males

Who often win

Unbelievable

*it doesn’t make sense to sex test without also dope testing"

So because we can't catch every possible form of cheating, we shouldn't do a simple straightforward one-time-only noninvasive test for men pretending to be female?

This is a great example of telling women that their concerns don't matter.

The bait and switch whereby people claim that male people have been competing in female categories for decades and therefore it is the GC lot who want to 'upset the status quo' and there should be 'more evidence' before that 'change' is made are so infuriating... and when I'm red in the face with fury then they will kick in with any angry woman stereotype they can find, the 'Karen' being the obvious one. Despite the fact that it was Lauren Jeska who actually tried to murder someone because of this. Presumably they wouldn't call Lauren a 'Karen'. Misogynist bunch of wankers. And there were protests at the time when Jeska was dominating English women's fell running, they just weren't as organised. Women being organised is intrinsically wrong, of course.

My dp knows Ralph Knibbs, who has life changing injuries. Jeska remains in a women's prison. Tbh they are clearly an intensely fragile and vulnerable man but also very dangerous.

Yep, I think you’re right actually, they can be done independently. I suppose ParkRun could ask athletes suspected of competing under the wrong sex to submit a verified sex test result from an accredited testing lab and cancelling their barcode if they fail to submit a result or are found to be male. Even then I suspect they would face all kinds of legal challenges that they wouldn’t have the funds to defend.

What I think will most likely happen is they will stop publishing times and places for UK park runs and Parkrunners will just use the clubs feature on Strava to compare their times.

The 'parkrun' question isn't about how many males take the records or positions of females .. it reinforces the narrative that women, women's sporting achievements and the participation of women in sport are less important than men's right to identify as women.

The 'parkrun answer' is not to do away with categories, to have sex verification or policing of categories.. it is about changing the language in the rules.

Instead of 'we publish results based on a person’s self-declared information, including gender.'

'We publish results based on self declared information including sex. The category 'prefer not to say' exists for those who wish to use it. Records and rankings will be published based on sex categories only. '

or even...

We respect the rights of participants to view their results under the category of sex or under the category of gender. Participants are invited to enter their details under both categories, with 'prefer not to say' as an option for each. Results can be segregated by sex or by gender as per individual preference.

This would balance the requirement of both groups.

In reality, very little will change. If there is a clear attempt to circumvent the rules, any question would be dealt with quietly within the stated rules which includes a statement that participation includes an agreement to abide by the decisions of the organisers... and if a dispute process were required.. they could choose to have one or could write a policy about this.

@ChateauMargaux that’s a great solution, keep it as an honesty-based system (as age is) but make it completely unambiguous by distinguishing sex from gender.

Mara Yamauchi states that there are over 150 instances where a male.has taken the position of first female finisher and at least 20 parkrun female records held by males.

Not 3..

But again.. it is about maintaining the narrative that fairness matters. As she said.. and many others have also said.. without fairness, sport is nothing.

The 'parkrun' question isn't about how many males take the records or positions of females .. it reinforces the narrative that women, women's sporting achievements and the participation of women in sport are less important than men's right to identify as women.

This.

And let's be honest here and cut to the chase: the true narrative beneath all of this is

a) Male people are of greater importance and humanity than female people and always take precedence. Female people are never deserving of what male people are, because female.
b) It is the birth given burden of female people to sacrifice and serve and have less so that male people have their entitlement
c) It is a noble and righteous for female people to sacrifice themselves to male people's happiness while not making it look as though it's happening so male people don't have to feel bad (see: mummy eats the scraps of what is left after she has fed everybody else)
d) Good female people suck this up and don't moan about this
e) We're all going to lie a lot to male people with big smiles about how we believe they're women (see section a) even though it's bleeding obvious that the pandering is all about a, b, c and d at all times.

It's just plain sexist as fuck. The whole thing. The wittering is never anything more than reluctant and grudging wondering about how much you can take off women, how much men can hurt them before it has to start mattering, how many women harmed make a large enough sample to justify the terrible step of Thwarting A Man.

Wtf is the matter with people? Why do you see women as such subhuman beings?

Spot the difference
women : what are you complaining about...? parkrun is a fun inclusive sociable event and results are largely irrelevant
Men : parkrun is a fun inclusive sociable event that you can also (if you wish) use for it's original purpose and be competitive against others

It was just a light hearted comment on pink news' biased journalism, but thanks for taking the time to show that understanding is less important to you than getting your point in, no matter how irrelevant to the comment you're replying to. A bit like PN really.

Well said.

I'm increasingly thinking that the women who are 'woke' and support men identifying into womanhood are those who are well off - much more likely to be in the middle class captured organisations etc. Those who can insulate themselves to some extent from the harms of it all - unlikely to be in prison, perhaps have private healthcare so will have more choice about carers or HCPs if needed, can either choose a school for their children or move to get into a school that isn't abandoning safeguarding etc. Women with choices. Choosing to throw more vulnerable children and women under the bus.

However, the one area I think these people have to face reality is in sport as this ideology makes girls and women taking up sport at any level completely pointless. I think this is why sport is so essential to a return to reality. Richer people who can avoid the harms of gender ideology for themselves and their children in other areas can't just brush it off as a 'tiny minority that doesn't matter'. It's only ever a tiny minority that win medals, that make it to the highest level and if men are allowed to ID into women's sports eventually the entire tiny minority making it to the top of women's sports will be men (and women and girls won't bother).

You only have to see the photo of Lia Thomas standing next to Riley Gaines to think 'unfair' and even Jenner has said male born people in women's sport is unfair. Frankly it's unbelievable that it's gone so far into allowing abusive men to dominate in women's sports.

Fully agree with all of this. You can't buy your way out of the negative consequences of genderism in sport, there isn't a female only Olympics available for purchase. Also I think men are more likely to be receptive to the idea that women need sex based rights and spaces because males are stronger than us, rather than because of the way some of them behave. Easier for them to admit. So there are multiple reasons why sport has turned into such an important dog in this fight.

@Crankywiddershins or you could have read my post further down where on reflection I revised my opinion.

parkrun is affiliated to UK Athletics . Results from UKA affiliated races appear on a website called the Power of 10 - this includes parkrun results.

UKA rules say you have to compete by sex, not gender identity, but some races are not policing it. However, when someone realises that a transwoman has competed in the female category, things do appear to happen like prizes being reawarded etc.

As for parkrun not being able to police whether someone is a transwoman - they rarely "pass" and it would be blindingly obvious in most cases. The event director could report to HQ who could remove the result. It isn't THAT common an issue and HQ could deal with it.

EXCEPT - as I've said on other threads - parkrun is a global organisation and needs a policy to work globally. It can't be hind bound by UK laws.

@enchantedsquirrelwood ParkRun’s relationship with UKA is for the purposes of having an approved body to sponsor enhanced DBS checks for volunteers I thought? Parkruns themselves aren’t UKA sanctioned races otherwise as you point out they would have to follow the UKA transgender rules.

Stop telling me what to do, you're not my real dad! I reply as I read otherwise I forget who I want to reply to, I'm easily distracted (ADHD)
But its always good to see someone who is willing to change their opinion in the face of new information so I'll forgive you for demanding I use Mumsnet by your rules if you stop expecting me to.

Good description of parkrun as have your cake an eat it.

It's a fun run to those that want motivation and the atmosphere. But it's competitive for those that want the timings recorded. And guess what, there's a hell of a lot of competitive women.

It's either one or the other. If parkrun want it to be a fun free for all then they need to stick by this and get rid of the results element. Because if males can compete then the results are not real.

Any sympathy I had for ParkRun has probably vanished. They seem to have erased a woman for WrongThink.

x.com/femalerunner/status/1742485327531393452?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

And the women's "record" is held by a male born convicted murderer! There seem to be no limits to their determination to "celebrate" the most dangerous of men.

Ah.

So Park Run. Not competitive but it is competitive, and those two things can definitely exist in the same space, and that's a good thing.

And celebrating a male convicted murderer's wonderful self actualisation of his chosen identity by assisting him to use the women's category and just erasing any women who protest about this is a good thing too.

Yeah. Once you've bought into the alternative reality that some men are women because reasons? Then facts, reality, morality, ethics, your credibility and grips in general are things you have chosen to leave behind you. And the madness mounts up in your wake.

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 10:41

And the women's "record" is held by a male born convicted murderer!

Yes, he carried out a savage, frenzied knife attack on an official who explained that he wasn't entitled to enter in the womens' fell running category.

I thought they were all timid, harmless accountants, in for fraud?

Attempted murder, not murder. I'm not saying it's fine but accuracy matters imo.