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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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puncheur · 29/12/2023 15:57

TBH I’m not sure why Parkrun are feeling the heat at the moment while Hockey England and British Gymnastics are completely asleep at the wheel.

Brefugee · 29/12/2023 15:58

In fact, if it's fine to upset people if it's an EXTREMELY small example, then let's upset the men with trans identities, because they're a much smaller sample than the women they are disadvantaging.

@Froodwithatowel (cool name) makes an excellent point which we should be repeating ad nauseam ad infinitum when confronted with people like parkrun and the "but it's only a few" brigade

Helleofabore · 29/12/2023 15:59

thehopefulgardener · 29/12/2023 12:37

To the people having a go at parkrun, please be clear on the stats.
There are 3 instances of a man holding a womens course record. This is at 2 parkruns, for 2 different age categories at one of these.
2 parkruns out of over 1000 in the UK.
In 2 age categories out of 7 or 8 available to women.
One person - the same one at all 3.

This is an EXTREMELY small example when over 100,000 people in the UK benefit from running parkruns every week, and not one from which you can extrapolate that 'parkrun hates and disrespects women'.

I totally support Seb Coe etc that trans should have their own categories in sport, and competition should be based on sex, but parkrun is NOT a competitive sport, and never has been.

Having them affiliate to UKA would go against their whole ethos.

Being open to everyone means exactly that.

Why does it have to only matter if it is a record? Every weekend it is now reported that at least one male is winning a park run.

Why do the women and girls running not deserve those wins? Because they are not record setting wins?

And if those women and girls stop bothering because they won’t win? Is that a desirable outcome? That is ok?

RoyalCorgi · 29/12/2023 16:00

This relentless use of "right-wing" as an insult is eventually going to be counterproductive. When identity loons decide that the only answer to a newspaper or a think tank raising legitimate, rational points about the flaws in gender ideology is to say that it is (gasp!) "right-wing", then I suppose we are all supposed to think: "Oh no! Being right-wing is the worst thing in the world! I'd better stop believing in biological reality and fairness for women."

Instead, I'm pretty sure that many people's response is to think: "OK, if believing that men can't be women, and that women shouldn't be forced to run races against 15 stone, 6ft 6" hairy-bollocked men is right-wing, then maybe I'm right-wing."

duc748 · 29/12/2023 16:10

Have you forgotten all the talk years ago about 'the looney left'? If the Guardian can be accused of using 'right-wing' as an implicit insult (although it's really in the eye of the beholder), then the right-wing press (which is most of 'em) certainly do the reverse, in spades. But as has often been pointed out before, there is nothing 'left-wing' about the gender movement, on the contrary, its concentration on 'the few, not the many' is anything but. Unfortunately, most of the Guardian's journalists don't seem to see this, with a few notable exceptions.

DewHopper · 29/12/2023 16:13

Ali Miraj currently doing this topic for the next hour on LBC (TW in women's sport that is).

BookWorm45 · 29/12/2023 16:33

Thanks for sharing the links. That article from Daley Thompson was very good, (can't currently read the Sharron Davies one due to paywall but her recent book was excellent).

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 29/12/2023 16:35

puncheur · 29/12/2023 15:57

TBH I’m not sure why Parkrun are feeling the heat at the moment while Hockey England and British Gymnastics are completely asleep at the wheel.

England hockey have said they’ll produce revised guidelines on transgender players in sept 24 (no fucking rush!!) but yes I agree

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 29/12/2023 16:53

Floisme · 29/12/2023 15:29

I would agree that it's reasonable for the Guardian to report on a think tank's funding and political allegiances, providing they're equally scrupulous whether the think tank leans left or right. Maybe they already are and I've missed it? I do seem to have missed their coverage of this story so I stand corrected on that.

But surely in Guardian-speak “right wing” is a dog whistle and is indicative of a moral panic? I think that’s how it works?

nettie434 · 29/12/2023 17:00

BoreOfWhabylon · 29/12/2023 14:32

Mara Yamauchi was interviewed on BBC Radio 4 World At One today about Park Run. She was very good, very clear.
Starts about 25 mins in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tqzd

I should have realised that you would already have added this link to the thread, Bore! 😀

PermanentTemporary · 29/12/2023 17:08

The Guardian could say 'insistence on this issue is gifting an obvious sensible campaign issue to otherwise notably anti-women right-wing organisations'. Maybe one day they will.

As for Natalie - mixed sex sport is great. Loads of us love getting stuck in to mixed sport at grass roots level. Everybody loved the mixed sex triathlons etc at the Tokyo Olympics (especially Brits, because we won). That has nothing to do with male people entering themselves in female categories with nationally approved paperwork saying they are a different sex, and I have to ask why you are confusing the two things.

puncheur · 29/12/2023 19:33

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 29/12/2023 16:35

England hockey have said they’ll produce revised guidelines on transgender players in sept 24 (no fucking rush!!) but yes I agree

Show quote history

Well that’s good news. I wonder if British Gymnastics will at some point? Although the disciplines in gymnastics are so different and tailored to each sex’s strengths I can’t see males having anything other than a massive disadvantage competing in the women’s sport - probably why we haven’t seen any…

Fizbosshoes · 29/12/2023 19:44

ResisterRex · 29/12/2023 09:04

Both great - especially Sharron and Martina being clear it's all levels of sport. But it is really great to see a piece by a man like Daley's as well. We need more men in this. I know he's been in it for a while but this new article is really good. Let's hope he brings more men out saying the same.

Thank you Sharron, Martina and Daley! Flowers

Mara Yamauchi is also outspoken about this on twitter or X.
She made several comments when Caster Semenya (I know they're not trans....but they also aren't biologically female) was doing interviews to publicise their book, and she has also made comment on parkruns stance on gender v biological sex

SerpentEndBench · 29/12/2023 22:27

Well quite, Alec.

Parkrun is both non competitive and in fact not even a sport - but simultaneously Parkrun records are made and new records are celebrated.

Holding these two opposing facts as both true is quite the act, isn't it.

dollybird · 29/12/2023 22:37

puncheur · 29/12/2023 19:33

Well that’s good news. I wonder if British Gymnastics will at some point? Although the disciplines in gymnastics are so different and tailored to each sex’s strengths I can’t see males having anything other than a massive disadvantage competing in the women’s sport - probably why we haven’t seen any…

Show quote history

I was thinking the same about gymnastics. I've seen videos online if male gymnasts trying to do female disciplines, and they mostly fail spectacularly (and vice versa the females).

dollybird · 29/12/2023 22:38

*of

Longcovidsucksss · 29/12/2023 22:48

ResisterRex · 29/12/2023 12:31

Show quote history

Wow, very enlightening, thanks for the link

SinnerBoy · 29/12/2023 22:54

Brefugee · Today 15:58

In fact, if it's fine to upset people if it's an EXTREMELY small example, then let's upset the men with trans identities, because they're a much smaller sample than the women they are disadvantaging.

I picked the same piece of Frood as it makes any excellent point. Millions of women or a few dozen men, who to disadvantage? What's that phrase? Something along the lines of the least harm to the most people?

BezMills · 30/12/2023 02:10

The needs of the manny outweigh the needs of the few (billion women)

Cancelledcurio · 30/12/2023 02:19

They are grubby wee cheaters who put women and girls' safety at risk in sport. Well done Sharron, Daley & Martina for speaking up. True sportspersons.

Helleofabore · 30/12/2023 04:23

thehopefulgardener · 29/12/2023 12:37

To the people having a go at parkrun, please be clear on the stats.
There are 3 instances of a man holding a womens course record. This is at 2 parkruns, for 2 different age categories at one of these.
2 parkruns out of over 1000 in the UK.
In 2 age categories out of 7 or 8 available to women.
One person - the same one at all 3.

This is an EXTREMELY small example when over 100,000 people in the UK benefit from running parkruns every week, and not one from which you can extrapolate that 'parkrun hates and disrespects women'.

I totally support Seb Coe etc that trans should have their own categories in sport, and competition should be based on sex, but parkrun is NOT a competitive sport, and never has been.

Having them affiliate to UKA would go against their whole ethos.

Being open to everyone means exactly that.

So if a male person sets the female Parkrun world record, that is ok in your opinion? Because it is not ‘competitive’ (why do they have records then) and it is an EXTREMELY small number of 1 effectively setting a record that may never be broken by a female runner?

But that is ok? Because it was just the 1 and apparently no women will be harmed by that unobtainable record set by a male person? Do you really think that park run is not a competitive event, while times are collected and records recorded?

SinnerBoy · 30/12/2023 05:46

That's the one, Bez, thanks.

Crankywiddershins · 30/12/2023 07:10

@ResisterRex "Of course there wouldn't be an "invasive" test as it's done by cheek swab. Bring it on and fuck off"
Are you telling me that pink news reports of genital checks in the park are untruthful? Well I never!

ResisterRex · 30/12/2023 07:45

It is ridiculous. Every single one of the drama-soaked quotes is so easily demolished now.

It's arguable that it's a bit unfair to focus on ParkRun. But they do seem to have a bit of a cake-and-eat-it attitude with this. "We're not competitive, it's a community thing oh and here are times by various groups only one of the groups is a bit of a mishmash but don't worry it's fine".

Women are very wise to this now. We see this stuff for what it is: any - ANY - route by which to claim this is normal, been going on years and women don't care. It's a mirror argument of prisons and toilets. It's got to be from a playbook.

Mixed sex competition isn't the norm, has not been going on years and we do care.

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