Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

I think that, if you're hoping for a theoretical discussion, you might have more success if you don't start off by suggesting you know what's good for women better than some of them know themselves, and maybe avoid what can or should be done when some women don't comply. And doncbe do women

Apologies, hit 'post' too soon and edit feature not working. My other suggestion for a less fighty discussion is to avoid referring to dissent as 'hate' less than a dozen posts in.

I file this kind of authoritarian 'I know best' attitude in the same place as the posts telling me it's my duty as a feminist to vote Labour.

It's pretty patronising to assume that none of these women have insight into the contradictions. All of us are living in an imperfect world and making compromises. Everyone picks their battles. Personally I would not have cosmetic surgery but I do wear make up. Another women draws the line somewhere else. It's incredibly narrow-minded to believe that you have found the correct line and that anyone who makes different choices is wrong and/or a patsy of the patriarchy.

the discussion about sex worker is pretty much always disgusting

because its always women who feel both somehow better than and threatened by sex workers...again bodies of adult women being policed by the well meaning saviours

Well, I'm skimming this in a cursory manner whilst also browsing other things in a cursory manner.
Have just googled Stockholm syndrome to see if it is called this in Stockholm and seemingly it is and is sometimes called Helsinki Syndrome, due to the fact it is referenced in Die Hard, apparently.
But, fascinatingly, there is also a London syndrome, characterised by resistance at every point. Which is somehow more appealing. Perhaps an alternating approach keeps you sane, keeps them guessing, cuts you some freedom.
Can't get that exercised about make up/shaving. Each to their own.
Interesting post Op.

I thought the OP made some good points and gives food for thought. I don't abide by it all myself in terms of make up, shaving etc which is why I'm not exactly radfem of the year. But it's important to have these conversations and work through it I think. Thank you for the discussion.

@Floisme I am not actually authoritarian at all and am incredibly distrustful of the authoritarian Left. I think in future I shall be sitting on a post before posting so I have longer to formulate my thoughts. I do not think the tone of my posts is any worse than those who have been mocking, dismissive and defensive.

I’m frustrated because I was engaged in a thread where a couple of posters were desperate to minimise the risks of sexual strangulation, a practice which has killed women and where without appropriate attention and legislation, men will be able to get away with extremely light sentences. I see time and time again women who absolutely defend their own subjugation and as someone who believes in sexual equality, I do judge it. To be told I am uppity for having this concern is disarming. Sometimes it feels like you can’t make any objective assertions; absolutely everything is subjective even when that is not the case. Or am I drinking different water? There were women who were against the suffrage yet I bet now even the posters disagreeing with me would think that they were not enlightened and they are grateful for the vote. What we think is good for us is cultural and changing constantly. I'm a product of my environment as much as anybody else.

The "hate" comment was merely in response to people saying I would get "thrashed". On reflection I would have used the word "backlash". But this is a forum with short posts not essays so I am not going to have every word perfect first time.

There are probably lots of things we all do that are culturally expected. There are some things that we question when we stop to think about what they might actually mean. I have no doubt there are things I do or expect others to do that are patriarchal in origin but only think about it when someone like the op asks the question. I like that you make me pause and think.

I also think there are things men are expected to do or not do that is cultural and patriarchal in origin e.g. wearing makeup. Who makes the rules?

Gosh I got a blow dry and wore make up to my c section so that I would like the photos 🫣 But I agree that the patriarchy makes me not like photos of my natural face and hair as much as my made up face!

I agree with you but I would have more of a bone to pick with the men who insist their children have their name and not their partners (especially if he's not willing to marry her!) and their male friends who would laugh at them if their children didn't have their name and the newspapers that make such a hoo ha when a female celebrity uses her own name for her child.
So glad my son has my name (my ex left while I was still pregnant so easy decision for me!)

Who makes the rules?

We all do. All our choices have consequences, a ripple effect, whether it's a conversation, the media we consume or where we spend our money. In the same way we only have one vote at the ballot box and our government gets elected to represent us (criticisms of the political system aside), we can only control ourselves but our whole culture is made up of individuals making choices. What you do matters.

I think it's funny there's a suggestion that women who don't wear make up and high heels etc have subliminal envy or inferiority to those who do

I don't wear make up as I'm naturally very good looking according to the white western patriarchal value system of what women should look like I was born 'lucky' by pure chance. The way I see it, I could have been born in any other human body so it's arbitrary that I'm not a completely different looking person.

My skin is great I stopped washing my face with any products a few years ago. So is my hair great - I also don't wash it with any products the last few years and it's so healthy and shiny. This makes me occasionally feel very smug and superior to those people who can't leave the house without five layers of stuff on their face. I worry for them what all the chemicals and gunk is doing to their health and if they don't get eye infections etc. A quick study of food health and hygiene regulations would affirm that whatever gunk is in your mascara wand is disgustingly dangerously loaded with bacteria.

Although I do admire the peacocks (peahens?) of this world who enjoy making a dramatic make-up statement and enjoy seeing fashionistas in their finery it's not something I have the desire to do personally.

I would never wear shoes I can't walk all day and also run if necessary in. That's just me. Each to their own. I like to walk a lot, I like to be able to leg it if necessary... doesn't everyone? I like my toes not squashed and no bunions or deformities. Do I feel inferior / jealous? Not in the slightest, I'm trying hard not to judge.

When I was a kid I had awful acne for a while and I remember that frantic feeling of not wanting to be looked at and trying to master the art of cover up and make up. Also as a teen being brainwashed into thinking I had to wear a certain thing and have my hair a certain way to be acceptably 'cool' or just 'acceptable' even. I feel so happy not to live in that world and oddly that makes me super cool. People tell me this. And they ask me how I look so young for my age and what I use on my hair and skin. I feel v powerful and rebellious and counter culture and empowered when I say NOTHING at all. I'm older now and I'm proud to be the face of rebelling against the capitalist system that said you can't go out without x, y, z, on or about your person.

I shave and sometimes wear heels. I wear a bit of make up most days. I like these things. Really confused as to what the problem is with these things op- please explain.

It's terrifying and also I can relate to having been brainwashed by the porn industry as a very young child due to abuse (when it was printed material as there was no internet) and also sexually violated and exploited by CSA. By the time I got to 16, I mistakenly thought I was empowering myself or taking back my power by acting out sexually and believed I was enjoying it.

Actually I was often being raped because in fact to withstand this insanity I was drinking and drugging to blackout. I paid a high price mentally, psychologically, spiritually, and so did my poor body.

I have worked recovery. I'm also a feminist. I no longer ever have sex with men, I do not find men attractive and never did, I define myself as a gay / lesbian woman. I was acting out what had been imprinted on me by abuse, porn, and the patriarchy.

I find it hard when I know what goes on in the sex industry world that women say hey I'm doing this to be strong and powerful as I don't really agree, in fact I feel sad, but then I'm told it's anti-feminist to criticise someone's work choice. But these women who say this are harming the youngsters whose brains aren't yet fully formed and want to be independent and powerful but are actually victims of severe abuse (young school girls with torn private parts from doing anal and group sex because it's a 'thing' now) so it's a cycle of sickness IMHO. not trying to offend anyone here, just speaking thoughts.

@LittleMissSunshiner

The title of this is confusing.

Women who do these things aren't acting against their own interests, they're just acting against yours and any other woman who feels the way you do. Which is perfectly within their right as free, independent people capable to making their own choices.

I don't think it's feasible, or right for that matter, to expect every woman to consider the entirety of womankind whenever they make a decision. We definitely don't expect that from men.

Not much IMO but wouldn't you rather live in a world where not shaving was totally normal and therefore not needed? Just wondering not being argumentative.

Also re heels, I mean I get that some heels are low enough to be mobile and the sort that even dancers wear but actual fancy heels that you can't run in... don't they hurt your feet ? And what if you want to run somewhere or stand up for a few hours or go for a spontaneous walk?

I find heels curious as I imagine people only put them on when they're about to sit down somewhere and then take them off again when they leave. I notice that models often don't wear the huge heels on the runway anymore, they carry the shoes in their hands.

@LittleMissSunshiner not really, I like shaving. I can't really imagine myself in a situation in which I'd need to run wearing heels & no they don't hurt my feet. I run 5-15 miles a week in my running trainers so definitely am not restricted in that area of life!

Whilst make-up is fervently being debated now I think we are losing sight of the OP's original and very keen observations which I broadly agree with. , I do think sadly very many women are unenlightened in understanding we are valued as less than men or as less than women if we don't conform to societies or often our own self-imposed rules of what a woman should be. If women truly valued themselves they would not put up with shitty relationships that are laid bare in their toxicity so frequently on here and in 'real' life.

Sadly some women do not understand they are being subjugated to the patriarchy. I was one of these women. I so wanted to be 'normal' and to have what I perceived other women had - In short to conform. I failed as I kicked back against a man who devalued me, threatened me, and hit me whilst pregnant. Had I kept quiet I would probably still be in that relationship.

The 'Freedom programme' aims to teach women what a good relationship looks like. These women are not stupid they are often simply unaware as I was and there are very many of these women.

My relationship with myself and men was certainly in part due to a very abusive childhood; don't underestimate the impact of trauma on women's thoughts feelings and ultimately actions. This is far more of an influence on how women live their lives than whether or not we wear makeup.

Your worldview would make sense if women were a homogenous group, all with the similar values, concerns and goals. The sisterhood, as it were, doesn't exist. If it does it does so among groups of similar women, not women en masse.

@thedankness I remember this thread and I was shocked that posters like you believed that strangulation kink was the problem - not the fact that murders were getting away with their crime because people somehow believed you can accidentally kill someone (no, you can't accidentally strangulate someone while inches away from their face). The woman whose partner asked her to strangulate him probably is not running any risk of killing him by accident.

You blaming the kink, however weird it is, is the same as someone blaming alcohol for rape and saying women should not drink because it's bad for their health and men can use it as an excuse for rape. or are we now saying that having a drink is also for men's benefit and we should stop for a greater good of womankind?

@LittleMissSunshiner depends what sort of heels you're wearing, I guess? But I went to standing gigs in heels and was fine

as for shaving - if I was to enforce my own preferences on the entire world then everyone would be smooth like a dolphin. Fortunately, I neither have the power to do it nor do I care what people do with their bodies...unlike some people

Whenever I listen to women lamenting behaviour such as shaving or wearing make up and heels, and discussing what can be done about it, I always wonder what else they would like to control, given half a chance. It is a side to feminism that I want nothing to do with.

I worry for them what all the chemicals and gunk is doing to their health and if they don't get eye infections etc. A quick study of food health and hygiene regulations would affirm that whatever gunk is in your mascara wand is disgustingly dangerously loaded with bacteria

Amazing how many PPs on this thread seem to believe that wearing make up will somehow leach into the skin and - what? - turn you into Katie Price?

Everything is made of chemicals. Literally everything. Where is your evidence that make up is harmful? They're not making it out of lead, any more, like the Elizabethans.

Everything you touch or use has bacteria on it, as you instantly contaminate it. If you're worried about a mascara wand, I've got some terrible news about your toothbrush.

@Floisme exactly

I also find it dascinating that while everyone agrees women are influenced by society, men and beauty standards by virtue of living in society and being exposed to these standards - we're not just a passive audience. We also create these standards and new trends, and often despite men not for them.

Nobody is going to convince me that women laminate their eyebrows to resemble fluffy caterpillars for the benefit of men, many of whom mock this trend...and yet there is plenty of women who love having fluffy eyebrows. Yes, they probably saw it on someone, likely on social media, and they loved it so now they have it.

Women are also not inherently asexual, and every person with an ounce of lust in them will have some sexual preferences.

Someone else engaging in something you don't like does not mean they were forced to do it by perverted men - women can be perverted too. Sure, you can argue that they had to have been exposed to it in some form at some point. But so were the men they have sex with and so was, clearly , every single person in this thread. Yet we are all able to say "nah, this is not for me". Why do you assume that women who said "I like THAT" were coerced and manipulated?