Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

"We're all individuals, with OUR OWN minds, and its fucking insulting to be patronised, insinuating don't know what we want and have been groomed by the patriarchy (give me strength)"

Well, no. As Arabella said, we are all part of a society.
We are all influenced by our surroundings.

your partner may care, maybe you mum if she's a bit weird like that...but others? they will either thing you're pretty or not, it won't affect their daily life

I get the feeling that most women. want us to be like men

"your partner may care, maybe you mum if she's a bit weird like that...but others? they will either thing you're pretty or not, it won't affect their daily life"

How you look affects how you're treated unfortunately.
My DM is not like that, but as far as a partner or potential partner - that's a very important aspect in many women's lives.

you chose what is important in your life, and whether you will care about how you are perceived

yes, there is a halo effect, but this applies to both men and women. you're a judge of how much you think it affects you and how much you care that it does

I've had a partner who hated my fashion choices - but whether I cared was up to me

Interesting post, I guess I disagree in that if you have intellectual integrity you could come to the conclusion something is feminist even if you decide go ahead and ignore it, and you can try to acknowledge your biases. Some issues are way more nuanced than others though which makes 'this is what is good for all women at all times' correct. The examples I gave in the OP I feel are less nuanced compared to others.

I think the thing I can't get over is that women are being strangled by men and claiming they enjoy it. The fact they can't imagine how it can go wrong is just beyond me.

This was the inspiration for the thread.

i would also argue that being ugly should not be equated with being "lesser than" and its the oversubscription of value to our appearance that is the key issue

Well, okay, but the bigger principle here is that there is no such thing as 'ugly'.

the problem is whether or not these women do actually feel like they need to do it and would leaving the house without makeup would genuinely affect their self-esteem, while in reality world is filled with less then perfect people

Not quite. The idea that there is such a thing as 'perfect' or 'less than perfect' or 'better' or 'worse' looking is the problem. Qualitative judgements of appearances is the problem.

Well, okay, but the bigger principle here is that there is no such thing as 'ugly'.

So you think everyone looks beautiful and you feel the same level of physical appeal in everyone you see?

No, I'm just as affected by societal standards and expectations as everyone else is. I can however recognise that UK 2023 beauty standards are not the same as Ancient Greek beauty standards, or Papua New Guinean tribal beauty standards, etc.

The fact that something is arbitrarily imposed by a society doesn't mean it is without power.

Yes, yes, you've somehow grown up totally immune to socialising norms, except ones you've chosen to adopt of your own free uninfluenced will. Hopefully you've also chosen to adopt of your own free will all social norms of acceptable behaviour out in public and can therefore behave 'normally' in society despite having been raised in a protective bubble that made you impervious to social messaging.

Or perhaps not? Do we perhaps live in a society with sexist expectations? We can choose to reject them and fight against them, but that doesn't mean that at present they are not there. Look simply at the fact that makeup and heels are marketed and pushed on women in a way they are not on men. Does that, to you, not affect the way in which these 'choices' are made?

Actually, let me refine that a bit: I'm affected by ... etc. I suppose we are all affected to different degrees.

"and whether you will care about how you are perceived"

Better looking people are more successful in life. This is backed up by stats, not just my opinion.

"I've had a partner who hated my fashion choices - but whether I cared was up to me"

Sure, but if my partner wasn't attracted to me, that would have a very negative impact on my life.

Same goes with names. It's OK for a girl to be called Billy/Billie, but not so much for a boy to be called Hilary or whatever name is currently deemed to be more of a feminine name.
You throw like a girl is an insult and I can't really think of an equivalent for women.

I don’t think people are ugly either. “Not pretty” maybe. You notice when people have acne or bad teeth, or they’re old but it isn’t that they’re ugly it’s that they have a medical issue.

Interesting thread with astonishing angry defensiveness (and I suspect projection) from some posters.

The idea that those women who don’t wear make-up are jealous of those who do and are judging those women as “lesser” is utterly bizarre.

I don’t wear make-up and kind of admire those who can be bothered and are skilled at it, while also being able to perceive it as unfortunate that there are women who are so unhappy with the way they look without make-up that they can’t leave the house or face even seeing family without it. That sounds like a shed load of pressure.

I feel like this was intended as a theoretical discussion about differences in societal expectations, but has been taken as personal criticism by some, which suggests they are not as secure in their choices as they claim. If they were, they probably wouldn’t care.

while i know we have this fluffy bubble online where we tell each other that everyone is beautiful, and personally i don't believe there is an objective beauty, but some people will find ua ugly, while others will think we're bees' knees

Some pretty varied things are in the OP.

Political stuff - I think the obvious answer is that some women don't agree with you about what's in their best interest, but also many people also think other things, besides their personal best interest, or that of women, is the only consideration.

I'm not sure why that's hard to understand tbh. You don't have to agree about things with someone to understand that views vary. And does anyone actually believe that self-interest ought to be our only consideration?

As for make-up and such. Sure, there is something there, but not easy to draw a lone around. It is normal, as a social, sexually dimorphic species, for humans to have an interest in differentiating ourselves by sex. How that looks in a specific culture will vary, but people do it even when polite society tries to tell them not to. Good luck stamping that out.

It's also tricky to draw a line around where beauty standards go too far. I'd put cosmetic surgery on the "too far" list, mainly due to the risks involved but also I think is supports very unhealthy attitudes to beauty in society at large. Make-up, not so much, it's not that expensive unless you want it to be, many many don't bother with it, and it's non-invasive. Shaving body hair, maybe in between - but more and more men do that too, so is it still a sexist problem as such?

I understand why people find "choice feminism" too simplistic. But when you have people convinced that other's having different views on some topics amounts to "not knowing what's good for them" my inclination is just to say fuck off.

Or perhaps not? Do we perhaps live in a society with sexist expectations? We can choose to reject them and fight against them, but that doesn't mean that at present they are not there. Look simply at the fact that makeup and heels are marketed and pushed on women in a way they are not on men. @Precipice

And yet whenever men are featured on these ad campaign (whether they're trans identified or not) this website blows up with post after post about how men are taking over our things! and how women are being erased! Etc

There's pretty much no way to appease people who do not want to be appeased because then what could they complain on online forums about?

'Good luck stamping that out.'

Again, who has suggested it needs to be 'stamped out'?

Criticising something, discussing it, questioning it is not the same as deriding it or suggesting it should be 'banned'.

then you could chose to either leave your partner or change your appearance

and yes, better looking people are more successful - partly due to halo effect, partly due to their own self esteem, however - there always be better looking people, even with hairy legs

I think this is only true to a point.

There are certain things in fashion or not, like the Kardashian butt vs skinny butt. (Though fashion isn't always a guide to what men find attractive - the question of what most women are going for comes up there I guess.)

And I think there has been in some ways a rise in beauty standards due to increasing health in the population. Someone with teeth that would not have been unusual on tv in 1960 would have to get them done today to get the same kinds of roles, and the general population also has much better teeth and health overall. So people expect that and what is unusual is noticible.

But there is a ton of overlap in male and female beauty across cultures, basically good skin, healthy hair, a symmetrical face and body, a good smell, and a somewhat characteristic male or female shape.

'Healthy' a very commonly judged desirable indicator, yes. As is 'sexually available' and 'fertile'. This is NOT to say there is anything inherently wrong with making these judgements, we all make judgements all the time. We all live among and with other people and we are all constantly calibrating and assessing.

The problem is believing that our time and context dependent judgements are inherently true.

I didn't say anything about banning.

It's being suggested that it's problematic that women want to look different than men and use fashion in order to emphasize that, and that they "don't know what's good for them".

That suggests the OP thinks society should discourage that kind of thing.

There have been societies that did so, in the name of enforcing a kind of uniformity between the sexes.

It doesn't work though. Some individuals don't care, but overall, people, especially young ones in their early sexual prime, won't do it, they will find ways to differerntiate.

It's reasonable to talk about where specific practices are detrimental, some obviously can be. But that's not what the OP seemed to be getting at, but instead the whole package of women wanting to do anything, right down to spending five minutes putting on make-up in the morning.

It comes off as pretty patronizing. Not to mention the inability to understand why people might disagree about politics.

Does anyone actually think that? Like, if you meet some random 17 year old in the street, and said, do you know different cultures have different beauty standards, they will find that idea surprising?

I think that might be a bit unusual.