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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

682 replies

thedankness · 22/12/2023 15:39

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

OP posts:
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Startingagainandagain · 23/12/2023 08:11

Interesting conversation. I think:

-society and conditioning: from a young age girls are sold the idea that being pretty is one of the highest goal they should aim for

-marketing/advertising: again constant messages reinforcing what women should look like and it being equated to success: ie if you wear make-up, the right clothes, spend a lot of time on your appearance in general then you will get a man, a good job and be happy

-society likes cultivating women's insecurities: if women are taught to obsess about relationship and their looks, they will spend less time focusing on education, developing their intellect and generally getting power for themselves...

-some women don't want to say or do anything to displease men so they support views even if they are harmful to women. Again women are conditioned to be 'nice', 'caring' and put everybody else's needs before theirs. For example it is interesting to see how many women will say nothing about their partner's use of porn, even if they find it objectionable, because they don't want to be seen as 'prudes' or because they believe the idea that all men watch and need to watch porn...

-patriarchal religions: again that helps condition women from a young age as to what their role should be.

I do think though that there is nothing wrong with a woman enjoying spending time on her appearance.

I think what is harmful is the fact that there is too much emphasis on how women should look and what they should be doing to please men still and not enough on the fact that women are equal human beings who should also be valued for their intelligence, skills, personality and so on.

I think things are changing though and It is perfectly right for women to have a choice to present and live as they wish, but the key thing is that this should be a choice and not something that comes out of being forced to conform/follow patriarchal ideas of what a woman should look like and how she should behave.

Gwenhwyfar · 23/12/2023 08:24

"Nobody is going to convince me that women laminate their eyebrows to resemble fluffy caterpillars for the benefit of men, many of whom mock this trend"

I think it's like any fashion. It looks good to them (from exposure probably) and so they think it looks good to others, including men.

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 08:28

what about the fact that often what is marketed as a beauty standards goes against what men generally find attractive? until, of course, they too get used to it by exposure

and it is not even a new thing - history is full of men moaning about women doing things to their appearance that they, the all so important men, didn't like

take corsets for example: these are commonly associated with torture devices invented for pleasure of men. Instead these were simple undergarments intended to keep your boobs in place and for to give support for your 1000 layers of clothing. Tight-lacing was a trend women engaged in and men viciously mocked and criticised

I genuinely think that when women change their appearance they do it to look like other women they find pretty, not to be prettier to men

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 08:30

Gwenhwyfar · 23/12/2023 08:24

"Nobody is going to convince me that women laminate their eyebrows to resemble fluffy caterpillars for the benefit of men, many of whom mock this trend"

I think it's like any fashion. It looks good to them (from exposure probably) and so they think it looks good to others, including men.

I absolutely don't believe any woman thought about what men think about her eyebrows

especially since women do so many things that men openly find unattractive and yet most of us does not actually care about it

FlowersInThePouringRain · 23/12/2023 08:53

Name changed for this as a bit embarrassing.

I fake tan regularly, dye my hair and wear make up.

I do all of these things almost exclusively because I have vitiligo. I have very noticeable bright white patches all over my body, including my genital region and my scalp (causing irregular bright white patches of hair growth)
I shave off my pubic hair because it again, it grows with irregular, bright white patches.

If I don't do these things (and I've tried) I look odd. Not normal. And I get comments, looks and unkind things said to me. I get stared at on beaches, on dates, people have asked me if my skin condition is "catching" and are worried to touch me.
Can you imagine getting naked for the first time with someone and then seeing you have cruella deville hair down there? I can tell you the reaction is often not kind.

So I do all these things not because I want to look pornified or stand out. I do it because I want to blend in. Look normal and not strange. Not have to explain myself constantly.
Yes, it's shit that the majority of people are either ignorant or misinformed about my condition, but I can't change society at large and I'm not going to throw my self esteem under the bus and feel constantly shit being stared at, questioned and having to explain that I'm not infectious.

I certainly don't do these things and then think I am better than those that don't. The pathetic thing is I do these things because I am jealous of those that don't have to. I wish EVERY SINGLE DAY that I didn't have to. Every day. It's time consuming, embarrassing and extremely expensive. All just to blend in and not stand out.

CuriousAlien · 23/12/2023 08:53

Ok this thread is still captivating me!

Some women like wearing make up and it isn't personally harming then. Yes. AND some women do hate their appearance and feel they need to wear makeup because they are scared and ashamed. They're not doing it for joy. They are spending time and money and emotional energy on it. Is this trivial? Possibly. I liked what a pp said about the fact this is fairly low risk, in comparison to say cosmetic surgery. But at the same they are part of the same system so I think it's fair to include both things in the same analysis.

OP said it was strangulation that started her thinking about this. Can the same be said there too? Some women enjoy choking as part of having sex and can do it in a safe way. But some women it seems now feel pressured to let their partner do this.

Hmmm is the problem here that we are talking about three types of women?

  1. Women who enjoy an activity and it isn't harming them individually
  2. Women who feel pressured to do something and it is harming them and they know it
  3. Women who do something without realising it is actually harming them
(All this without considering whether one person's actions might harm others in the group)

I suppose what I am hearing is that people feel patronised when it is assumed they are group 3 and not group 1. Fair enough. And that people don't have to consider the rest of the group in their personal cost benefit analysis. True as well. There's also something for me about psychological resistance to being told what to do. As others have said, once you trigger that resistance it's unlikely anyone will listen even if you have irrefutable evidence.

OP I liked that you posted without too much thought. It seems much more fruitful than thinking everything out first. Being baffled by something seems like an open place to start.
Are you the canary in the mine or someone out of touch with other people's reality? Can both be true?

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:16

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 08:28

what about the fact that often what is marketed as a beauty standards goes against what men generally find attractive? until, of course, they too get used to it by exposure

and it is not even a new thing - history is full of men moaning about women doing things to their appearance that they, the all so important men, didn't like

take corsets for example: these are commonly associated with torture devices invented for pleasure of men. Instead these were simple undergarments intended to keep your boobs in place and for to give support for your 1000 layers of clothing. Tight-lacing was a trend women engaged in and men viciously mocked and criticised

I genuinely think that when women change their appearance they do it to look like other women they find pretty, not to be prettier to men

I’d always assumed that corsets were at least partly about advertising reproductive viability via hip-waist ratio…?

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 09:23

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:16

I’d always assumed that corsets were at least partly about advertising reproductive viability via hip-waist ratio…?

tight-lacing was though to harm fertility, there were entire pamphlets and articles written by men about harms of tight-lacing, with the key one being that it may make woman infertile

while regular corsets hardly emphasised anything, they were there to hold the shape of your clothes and give your skirt something to hang off from other than your hips

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:32

Precipice · 22/12/2023 17:58

Why do you think that so many women just happen to like makeup and just happen to feel insecure about going out into the world with just their normal face, but so few men just happen to like makeup and just happen to feel that they can't go out to the shop without painting their face up?

I don’t think many men would feel able to wear make up if they wanted to. I’ve definitely had straight male friends bemoan this!

In your early 20s particularly, how you look (male or female) feels so important. I think both sexes would prefer to cover up blemishes and enhance their attractiveness to the sexes they are attracted to. I think this is a pretty fundamental drive in humans.

I think being able to wear make up to go out and party in is kind of great.

It’s more problematic, imo, when it’s expected at work, to go to the shops, etc. A few years back I lived in a different European country, and most women there did not wear make up at work on a daily basis, and neither did I. This was in sharp contrast to offices in the UK, where as a young woman I definitely felt I would be judged going to work bare-faced. I did indeed put this down to sexist attitudes in the UK.

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:38

Interesting as well that at the same time as women have made advances and achieved a more equal footing with greater financial independence, career opportunities, greater freedom of choice in their personal lives, etc., straight men have become more concerned with their appearance. (Although sure this is driven by capitalism and the endless quest for new markets also).

I remember well in the late 90s when men using moisturiser marked them out as a ‘metrosexual’.

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:42

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 09:23

tight-lacing was though to harm fertility, there were entire pamphlets and articles written by men about harms of tight-lacing, with the key one being that it may make woman infertile

while regular corsets hardly emphasised anything, they were there to hold the shape of your clothes and give your skirt something to hang off from other than your hips

Edited

Ah interesting. Although I suppose the aim wouldn’t necessarily be to enhance fertility so much as the appearance of fertility…?

Fynetanksfather · 23/12/2023 09:49

Just found this potted history of corsetry interesting! The panic over health issues looks like it was confined to a short period in the Victorian era, which saw a brief trend for ‘health’ corsets. Although the subfertility claims don’t seem to have been established

https://glamorouscorset.com/articles/complete-history-of-corsets/

A Complete History of Corsets: Starting in the 16th Century - Glamorous

Waist training corsets have been around for several centuries. So where did the history of corsets begin and how did they come about?

https://glamorouscorset.com/articles/complete-history-of-corsets/

thedankness · 23/12/2023 09:50

bakewellbride · 22/12/2023 22:36

I shave and sometimes wear heels. I wear a bit of make up most days. I like these things. Really confused as to what the problem is with these things op- please explain.

As you asked: shaving. It’s not highly problematic but it’s not a neutral act when put in context.

It carries a small number of risks: from ingrown hairs, to opportunistic infections, abscesses and even sepsis. If more women than men shave and shave a greater surface area in average, it follows that they are more likely to suffer these consequences. It is sometimes mistakenly associated with hygiene – especially for women.

Shaving costs time and money, which mothers in particular tend to have less of than men or fathers. Women earn less than men on average, they bear more of the domestic mental load and they are affected by the pink tax. Despite having less time and money we spend more on this activity, thereby the costs to us are disproportionate compared to men. As a pp said, this is viewed by some feminists as a useful distraction against political organisation, or on a personal level using that time, energy and money for a more self-actualising activity.

Pubic hair removal recreates a prepubescent look and was popularised by porn as it was a novelty (a way for the industry to make more money) and so the genitals could be clearly seen. If porn popularises the sexual ideal as hairless, then women with pubic hair are less sexually attractive, while men do not have to remove their hair to remain sexually attractive. If a prepubescent look is idealised then it is one step towards normalising paedophilia and suggesting the adult female body in its unaltered state is not appealing.

Something that irks me is that swimwear and underwear is frequently not made with pubes in mind. If you don’t want the messy look of them coming out of a bikini or just exposing them in general, as a private part, most attractive swimwear is out of the question unless you remove the hair. Why is the standard bikini not some nice swim shorts? Women are not as able as men to be spontaneous about a fun unplanned swim.

These are some of the negative aspects of shaving.

The consequences of not shaving include self-consciousness, fear of negative attention or judgement and actual negative comments or looks. Fully grown out underarm hair would definitely get stares. Humans are social creatures and ostracism is harmful to us. The more women comply with body hair removal, the more women who don’t do it stand out, and the greater the pressure to conform or otherwise suffer social repercussions.

Now think of men and the primary area they shave: their face. Some men have beards and some don’t; a man will often alternate between the two throughout his life. It’s a non-issue. Men don’t think twice about going around with leg hair and underarm hair and have not been told it’s disgusting or had jokes made about it. In our culture it is dignified and manly for men to have body hair but slovenly, unhygienic and unfeminine for women although both occur naturally. So the choice for women when it comes to body hair is far more constrained than the choice for men. Thus making it a feminist issue.

When I said some of this to my friend, she realised she basically started shaving because everyone else did, and never really considered not shaving. She grew out all her hair for about 2 years then went back to shaving intermittently. Whatever she does is her choice, except now she’s making it with a bit more agency than she was before.

Saying you like shaving is only really a valid statement if you can also not shave and not face or fear any negative consequences.

It’s about questioning “is this act, in the wider context in which I am performing it, an anti- or pro- women act?”

OP posts:
thedankness · 23/12/2023 09:58

The assertions on here that I want to control other women are unfounded and come from the same dishonesty that denies harm to a group while you do whatever makes you happy as an individual. It isn’t a convincing argument against the premise that women are active participants in their own subjugation.

OP posts:
ferretface · 23/12/2023 10:02

I often wear makeup and have long hair and other trappings of stereotypical femininity. I also like the way I look when I'm dressed up although fully aware it's because I've internalised female beauty standards. Other days I don't bother and am just me.

I rebel against expectations of women in a variety of different ways (I'm a competitive athlete; I didn't change my name; I am anti sex work and anti pandering to a male view of the world) but this is one area where being totally honest, I would just find it quite tiring and difficult to fully live my values. Jettisoning female beauty standards would also disadvantage me in various ways including potentially at work, where I currently outearn my husband.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/12/2023 10:05

thedankness · 23/12/2023 09:58

The assertions on here that I want to control other women are unfounded and come from the same dishonesty that denies harm to a group while you do whatever makes you happy as an individual. It isn’t a convincing argument against the premise that women are active participants in their own subjugation.

The thing is, like all socio-political models, the concept of the patriarchy is just that - a model for understanding the world, not an all-encompassing truth. It helps us comprehend, but it doesn't explain or guide all behaviour.

Trying to interpret everything people do through the lens of any model, whether it's the patriarchy or Marxism, is woefully simplistic and doomed to failure.

thedankness · 23/12/2023 10:08

@PaintedEgg what about the fact that often what is marketed as a beauty standards goes against what men generally find attractive? until, of course, they too get used to it by exposure

Yes I agree that women are driving and enforcing the beauty standards more than men, although the people profiting the most financially might be men. As you say when men become acclimatised to it they may then partake in enforcing those standards.

A.k.a. women create a stick for men to beat us with. Kind of the point of my initial post.

OP posts:
Floisme · 23/12/2023 10:14

thedankness · 23/12/2023 09:58

The assertions on here that I want to control other women are unfounded and come from the same dishonesty that denies harm to a group while you do whatever makes you happy as an individual. It isn’t a convincing argument against the premise that women are active participants in their own subjugation.

The assertion is rooted in our own opening post, e.g
They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments.
Or
And can or should we do anything about it?

That doesn't sound like clumsy, hurried wording to me, it sounds like it stems from an overwhelming confidence that you know what's good for other women better than they do.

And I haven't spoken about what I do or don't do myself.

thedankness · 23/12/2023 10:15

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/12/2023 10:05

The thing is, like all socio-political models, the concept of the patriarchy is just that - a model for understanding the world, not an all-encompassing truth. It helps us comprehend, but it doesn't explain or guide all behaviour.

Trying to interpret everything people do through the lens of any model, whether it's the patriarchy or Marxism, is woefully simplistic and doomed to failure.

I agree with you that the concept of patriarchy is just one socio-political theory and not the ordained truth. However my first sentence still stands: accusations that I want to control women are dishonest.

OP posts:
PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 10:16

@Fynetanksfather it was only a short period of time when tight-lacing became popular (and as with other beauty enhancements, not everyone did it, most had no time or desire for that)

anyway, the point is that what women find aesthetically pleasing does not always align with what men like and when there is difference in what men and women like, women tend to chose what they like despite complains and mockery from men

OceanicBoundlessness · 23/12/2023 10:22

We are groomed to do it all and unless we are somehow immune to it as children and teens there's quite a bit of unraveling to get back to what we want to do rather than it being what society/norms tell us what to do, or a reaction to it. When we've grown up with the messaging we have, how do we even separate it?

Getting in touch with my body and doing more outdoor stuff has made me prize comfort, how my body feels and my body being able to do what I need it to do over what it looks like. At one point I'll have been so out of touch that I wouldn't have realised how uncomfortable I was constantly pulling my tummy in and wearing moderate heels.

Somehow I'm starting to become the person I swore I would never become. One of those women who has let themselves go. This is simply because I now prioritise and prize different things.

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 10:23

@thedankness nobody, not men, not other women, not the society, is responsible for how you feel about your body hair. You are not providing some groundbreaking discovery regarding the disadvantages of shaving. What seems to be your problem is that women who do shave are perceived better than those who don't, but the fact that you care so much about being seen as attractive to strangers is really, at its core, a "you" problem.

Because there are plenty of women who don't shave, and there is a lot of swimwear available that covers more than g-string would. In fact, you can purchase swimwear that will cover your entire body if this is your preference - or you can just ignore what people think about your pubes the way men do

it's only a problem when you make it a problem - but you are setting yourself up for a lot of frustration by trying to make it everyone else's problem too

thedankness · 23/12/2023 10:29

CuriousAlien · 23/12/2023 08:53

Ok this thread is still captivating me!

Some women like wearing make up and it isn't personally harming then. Yes. AND some women do hate their appearance and feel they need to wear makeup because they are scared and ashamed. They're not doing it for joy. They are spending time and money and emotional energy on it. Is this trivial? Possibly. I liked what a pp said about the fact this is fairly low risk, in comparison to say cosmetic surgery. But at the same they are part of the same system so I think it's fair to include both things in the same analysis.

OP said it was strangulation that started her thinking about this. Can the same be said there too? Some women enjoy choking as part of having sex and can do it in a safe way. But some women it seems now feel pressured to let their partner do this.

Hmmm is the problem here that we are talking about three types of women?

  1. Women who enjoy an activity and it isn't harming them individually
  2. Women who feel pressured to do something and it is harming them and they know it
  3. Women who do something without realising it is actually harming them
(All this without considering whether one person's actions might harm others in the group)

I suppose what I am hearing is that people feel patronised when it is assumed they are group 3 and not group 1. Fair enough. And that people don't have to consider the rest of the group in their personal cost benefit analysis. True as well. There's also something for me about psychological resistance to being told what to do. As others have said, once you trigger that resistance it's unlikely anyone will listen even if you have irrefutable evidence.

OP I liked that you posted without too much thought. It seems much more fruitful than thinking everything out first. Being baffled by something seems like an open place to start.
Are you the canary in the mine or someone out of touch with other people's reality? Can both be true?

I think this is an interesting way of putting it, thank you. The women in group 2 are also harmed by the women in group 1 and group 3 but will have more reason to be upset at those in group 1 because the might be more conscious of the harm to group 2 but choosing to ignore it.

OP posts:
Floisme · 23/12/2023 10:30

However my first sentence still stands: accusations that I want to control women are dishonest.
I am very much hoping this is yet another example of hurried writing and that the word you were looking for was 'mistaken'. If you're going to throw around accusations of dishonesty then I'm out. Have a nice day.

PaintedEgg · 23/12/2023 10:40

@thedankness you are not being a champion for women by basically blaming women for being unfavourably compared to them (and that's a theoretical comparison anyway).

I once had a conversation with someone who was blaming promiscuous women for the way men disrespect all women. This lady basically said that because of those nasty women who sleep around men won't respect all women, including ones who don't engage in casual sex

So basically: Person A blames Person B for how Person C treats Person A, while Person B may potentially have no relation to Person A or C.

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