Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

In regards to hookup culture I can honestly say that as a woman I'm glad that more women feel they can enjoy casual sex.

I love sex. I don't however love the idea of being in a committed relationship, sharing a living space, going on dates etc. Just not for me. I like my own company and my own space as it is and if I want to go to restaurants/cinema etc that what's my friends, sisters etc are for.

Quite frankly, as simply ghastly and whorish as you may find it, I pretty much just want men for sex...so engaging in hookups with men who are on the same page as me in that regard is a pleasant, mutually agreeable way for two consenting adults to spend a Saturday night 🤷🏽‍♀️

I've known countless women over the years who feel the same way. It's silly to act as if all women out there are desperately seeking connections and commitment. I've never wanted either and it's not an uncommon way for a lot of women to think...

No. I really wasn’t commenting on body hair. I can’t be bothered.
It gets confusing when people don’t actually quote the post concerned.
Anyway, I don’t see how you go from a situation where there is every expectation that a woman will do a particular thing such as change her surname to zero expectation without the actions of individuals changing the expectations of society. Or indeed in the case of oral sex, from zero expectation to every expectation.
Yes, it is a bit like the religious idea that everything we do to each other, we do to God, which could start to seem a bit ridiculous if employed when dealing with fairly trivial issues and used for control

@WhatWouldJeevesDo i think there is another angle to consider - do the majority actually want to change the expectation / cares for it?

For example, women were mosty bothered by having to do majority of chores at home so naturally more and more women began to push for their partners to pull their weight around the house and to teach their sons that they are not exempt from housework.

Women absolutely can keep their maiden name and unless there are much more serious issues in the relationship (control freak for a partner) there won't be that much pushback if they decide to keep it. If they don't then there is very real possibility that they don't want to and have reasons that go beyond "my in laws told me to"

@PaintedEgg

"do the majority actually want to change the expectation / cares for it?"

There is something in this for sure. My mother will boast how my dad never changed a nappy. There is definitely this sense of respect given amoung some women because they did so much for the husband and family. It's a badge of honour.

I've also worked as a private nanny and did lots of work for wealthy stay at home mums who's husband was out all day working. Women who had cleaners, gardeners and access to their husbands money. Women in that postistion mostly don't want to change it from what I've seen. Obviously some will feel caged and go mad not working but the ones I e seen get fulfilled via their kids life and some charity work and heavy involvement in the PTA. One was at the spa most days. But with the expection of the gardeners all the outsourcing of work in the home is given to women.

The working mothers I've worked for outsourced all the home stuff to other women too. And yes I mean the mothers I've worked for at my contract was always with the mother sorting childcare only contract I've dad with dad on there too was the most amazing family and the closest to equality I've ever seen. (They also treated me like a human not the staff). But let's ask ourselves how many women really would have no problem with male childcare provision ? Many many of us would have no problem, many would say we have no problem then just pick a woman (sort of how men get the best jobs in other areas) but many will just think a woman will do a better job. And that's because of weaponised incompetence and that men often haven't learnt these skills to the same standard. A personal example is my son requires a carer, we have had a few and many of them are men, I've settled on a man as my son gets on with him most but when the women do the caring they will tidy as they go along and wash up their mug put the soiled clothes in the machine and the machine on not just dumped in front of it. I had one female carer who went above and beyond and did all the washing up and cleaned my kitchen- she didn't have to do it but she enjoyed it. She enjoyed it because she could see how much she helped the family as care of a child is not all parenting is but the men are good and enjoy the work because they like the kids and get the reward from that they don't even see the mess they leave the house in

@PurpleBugz I agree, there is a lot that men just get away with / don't do that women do.

But I also think that people in relationships "fall into" their roles.

I like to think of myself as progressive and my husband is very involved in family life (he does all the cooking for example)...and yet, over time, the "admin" bits related to kids somewhat fell into my list of to do things and it suits us both - because I remember / take care of those things anyway, so there is no need for him to be "on it" as much. He would if he had to, but he doesn't need to and I wouldn't want him to.

I would need to inconvenience myself and my family to change a family model that some women don't like...of course I would not do that and I would expect everyone to figure out their family dynamics on their own.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo thanks for responding.
I'm sorry it felt like I was trivialising what you were saying by linking back to body hair.
I've been married twice and neither time changed my name. It didn't feel like an effort and any comments from inlaws or friends have been like water off a duck's back.
On the other hand, when I was a young woman I felt deep shame at the hariness of my body, and so, so anxious about what other people (male and female) would think if they saw me undepilorated. I am happy I no longer live like that, life really is better now - so, to me, body hair isn't a triviality. Whereas maiden name-change kind of is.
What I observe on this thread is that there is SO MUCH variation in what, when it comes to social mores, we experience as overwhelming pressure to conform, what coheres with our preferences anyway, and what we feel no compunction to conform to at all.

I don’t disagree, OP. I wonder, though, to some extent, is this pursuit for attraction inbuilt into our humanness? Like animals or birds - puffing out their prettiest feathers, we have just learnt how to manufacture even brighter, prettier feathers?

"I don’t see how you go from a situation where there is every expectation that a woman will do a particular thing such as change her surname to zero expectation without the actions of individuals changing the expectations of society."
Also, isn't one step in this process individual women (who get the ball rolling) saying, "I don't care about societal expectations or what other people think."

@ARockIsASlowSlowCooledOffFlameAndACradle I like how you summarised this variability...and based on that, can we really expect that women will work as one hive-mind to change social normals while amongst ourselves there is absolutely no agreement as to what bothers us - but the expectation of this hive-mind mentality is sometimes used to undermine us too.

I've seen social and political discussion where whatever an individual said was countered with "but other feminists said..."

Even on this forum I was met interchangeably with accusations of either just hating men/angry feminism, being subservient to men or being a man when my views or attitudes didn't align with whatever majority of women said on particular topic (before I joined here I never realised that my attitude towards sex can be so controversial).

It would be nice if we began treating each other as people with varied needs, wants and preferences first....

Be nicer if people stopped judging others by their own choices....

I didnt change my name when I married my ex. I didnt like his name and it was not and never would be my identity. I am however just out of the shower, about to blow out my hair, put on some makeup and get dressed into something nice but practical for the fact I am working from home today and not seeing anyone or doing anything as it is too stormy out there. Ooh maybe I am doing it for the dog. He is male after all 😉

On the name thing - it can swing all the way to the other end of expectation spectrum

I didn't change my name when I first got married and it was never even a question whether I would.

But then I got divorced, remarried and changed my name - and there was a lot of consideration that went into that decision. I also got a fair bit of criticism from no other than my dad who believed I should keep my maiden name because it's on all of my diplomas and I should not change my name for anyone. It is a bit insulting that my careful decision got thrown into "she's brainwashed by tradition" bag

I wanted this too but unfortunately guys round here around my age are so pornsick hookups are completely miserable. The women I'm attracted to either don't want hookups or are very into he der and/or kink too ..I'll amuse myself instead :P

@Psychoticbreak do you have a "self-gaze"?(for want of a better term)
What I mean is, do you have a consistent visual sense of yourself as wearing makeup or is it that you like to see yourself in reflection every so often? I am wondering exactly how the pay off works as it doesn't work like that in my brain. I can understand nail varnish or clothes as the colour or sparkle or texture is always visible.
Or is it more like "Kleider machen Leute" (I like the German phrase better than the English "clothes maketh the man"). So there is a sort of magic in dressing a certain way and wearing makeup in how it effects your sense of self, posture etc. Maybe like Granny Weatherwax's headology of the witch's hat.

@CuriousAlien I only look in the mirror to do hair and makeup and to give my self a once over look to make sure my dress is not in my knickers or something lol and thats it. I dont reapply makeup during the day or anythbng but i like the feeling of getting up and showered and just kinda polished for want of a better term. I do have days I look like I live under a bridge and insult people for the craic too but mainly I like to be fresh and ready for the day ahead. I dont wear makeup every day but I like the look and feel of it on my face.

@CuriousAlien are there any studies about this "self-gaze" concept? I find it very interesting!

I took it to mean am I up my own arse to be honest 😆

@Psychoticbreak that could be that as well 😛

but it would explain why some people care excessively about their own appearance for themselves while others have no defined image of what they look like in their own head

a bit like when people try to remember an interaction they may imagine how it went looking from first or third person perspective (ie they try to imagine they are looking at themselves)

i like how its going into the realm of cognitive psychology now

Thanks @Psychoticbreak I appreciate you answering my curiousity :D
Hehehe not as far as I know, I just made it up. I definitely didn't mean are you up your own arse! I just thought if I accept what you say as true for you, that you like putting makeup on just for yourself then what is the payoff?
My idea is, that if it isn't the gaze or judgement of another then is it your own gaze? And if not literal gaze (no judgement if it were) then is it a sort of self image gaze? I suppose the next question that interests me is to understand how to let people develop that self gaze and self pleasure without shame or pressure from the "beauty" industry and new social hierarchies driven by social media.
I really do believe that the more we listen to each other's stories, the more we'll figure out if there is harm somewhere and if so, what we can do to help each other. And that's not to say that everyone has to act for others, that's just my choice.

@PaintedEgg yes that's a good extension of what I'm trying to say.

@CuriousAlien I think you're onto something very interesting. In psychology there is a lot about concept of what we consider to be our "self", but there is a lot of variation in how each person defines themself - it would make sense to assume the literal mental image we have differs.

I for one have a very defined imagine of what I look like in my head and I'm very possessive of it

@thedankness what about the idea that collecting women's stories about any of the particular issues you mentioned would help to challenge a single dominant narrative and reveal what solutions might be? I suppose what is most effective is when you have stories that might also contradict each other. Like hearing the voices of trans widows or detransitioners

@thedankness and maybe that answers another part of your op. Challenging a narrative can bring massive resistance because of the cognitive dissonance it causes. Do you know the poem Snow by Louis MacNeice? It has the phrase "incorrigibly plural" in it.

@PaintedEgg I have a feeling you would take me down if I tried to mess with your self-image 🔥😊

@OchonAgusOchonOh - I do hate my maiden name, and it is one of the reasons I did decide to take dh’s name when we got married. My maiden name was used as the basis of the bullying that started when I was a preteen, and carried on u til I was 16 - bullying that left me having suicidal thoughts by the time I was 14. I like dh’s surname, so I was happy to change to it. Is that OK?

To address the wider point of this thread - there seems to be a huge list of things we must do, and things we must eschew, if we want to be considered a good feminist - and anything less than 100% compliance with these items means complete failure as a feminist. Surely the truth is that we are all doing our best, but that a vanishingly small number of us will be able to achieve every single thing on these lists.

Your decision @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius . It's not up to me to ok it or not.

However, if you hated it that much, why didn't you change it once you were old enough to do so? You could have legally changed it at 18.