Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

I don't think majority of things you have listed affect others when made as a personal choice.

I wish this was true but it's not. You really think the 99% of women who change their name after marriage don't make it harder for the 1% who have to battle their partner and their sniffy in-laws? The women who have one night stands and no expectation of an orgasm don't make it harder for other women on the dating scene to demand more?

I'm not claiming to be holier than thou here. I've made lots of choices that definitely weren't feminist ones. It's not easy, especially if you're young, but there's no point being in denial about it.

If there is one life skill every girl should be taught from the earliest age is that of independent thinking. It unlocks so much advantage to women, being able to think for themselves, protecting themselves from being brainwashed into being perfect, looking perfect, having poisons injected into themselves to be more appealing to men. They would argue "oh but I'm doing it for me, not anyone else". Yeah right, no it's to make themselves more attractive to, and to please men in many many cases.

awaiting my thrashing....

You really think the 99% of women who change their name after marriage don't make it harder for the 1% who have to battle their partner and their sniffy in-laws?

Its 90% in the U.K., not 99%

and it’s not universal, even in the US, only 70% of women take their husband’s surname:
https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/family/2022/03/15/the-maiden-name-debate-in-which-countries-do-women-not-take-their-husbands-name/

there sure is the difference in how the motivation is judged after being 100% assumed by others

14 pages of women explaining why they like certain things that have nothing to do with being judged, while being judged by other women to be brainwashed, but suuure, your explanation is 100% reflective or reality

honestly - no, i don't. in this day and age if your in-laws and partner give you grief over your own name I'f reconsider getting married at all. I've been married twice, changed my name only once and in neither case I was pressure either way.

and you cannot "demand" more of people who don't want to give more. People having one night stands are not looking for a relationship and if they don't find something for the night they won't suddenly turn to marriage and commitment as an alternative. If women at dating scene are looking at these people for commitment then I bet they're a type to seek out fine wine at a petrol station

lesbians enter the chat...

@PaintedEgg speaking as a bisexual, I doll myself up for both men and women, but I stop short of things that will cause me harm: cosmetic surgery and injections, disordered eating/juice cleanses/starvation diets. I know my worth goes beyond attracting and keeping a partner.

that wasn't my point...but lets go with it

do you think that homosexual women, who genuinely have no interest in being attractive to men, put on makeup or use botox to be attractive to other women? and if so then obviously the issue is a bit more complex than "male gaze makes women do things"

on topic of fillers - when I will get to that stage (and I know I will) it won't be for men for sure

I think this surge in plastic surgery/ Botox/lip fillers etc may be responsible for why so so many men look much older than their partners when they get to a certain age.

I absolutely disagree that casual sex is harmful to women as a whole - nobody is forcing anyone to do it! normalisation of one end of spectrum of sexual behaviour does not mean the other end is now "not normal".

@PaintedEgg I don't agree with this. I think that the promotion of hookup culture is very detrimental to women as a whole. Much more detrimental than the things that OP lists. Research has shown time and time again that very few woman actually want or enjoy hookups, but there is social pressure, particularly for young women, to engage in this as it has become normalised, and it mainly benefits men.

Now I'm absolutely not saying that women shouldn't have casual sex if they want to, but I don't see this as any different to women wearing makeup, shaving, having cosmetic surgery etc. The point is that you can't dictate what individual woman are allowed to do with their own bodies, just because some other women may see it as harmful to them. Nobody is forced wear makeup or have cosmetic surgery, and if some women want to do this, then it's really nobody's business but theirs. I'm sick of the judgement.

I also find it odd when people say that they wear make makeup, but then say, 'but only a small amount' - as if this makes them morally superior.

So women are allowed to wear makeup but not 'too much' makeup? Who gets to make the judgement call on what is 'too much' makeup? No wonder women are under so much pressure when they are faced with this constant judgement and criticism.

@MidnightMeltdown I think this will make me a tiny bit of an asshole, but I will say that adults are responsible for their own choices.

Yes, hookups are universally known to be bad but when you look into research it's a lot to do with how bad the sex itself is...and its not surprising, because what are the odds that two strangers will give each other 10/10 experience? It seems like it's often a half-measure for people who don't want a relationship or can't be in one, but still want sex...hence the expectation is actually pretty low. It seems like hookup sex is often the same as getting breakfast on the go

Which brings me to my next point - do we really need to protect women from experience that does serve some sort of purpose but is almost universally known to be subpar? I have managed to avoid bad hookups by never having hookups, and anyone I ever spoke to who had them was not driven by social pressure but by being single and horny at the same time

@MidnightMeltdown sorry for convoluted post, basically what I meant to say is that if all women start to refuse hookups without commitment this will leave women who do not seek commitment both single and without sex...how is that a win for them?

I don't think you understand the meaning of 'blueprint' in the context I was using it then.

One's blueprint is the childhood conditioning and training and input you received from your caregivers, the culture and society around you that you raised in, and the school teachings at the school you went to, the culture of your neighbourhood, the dynamics of the systems you were raised in, the culture and politics of your country, even intergenerational beliefs that exist withing your family system. You had no choice about that as you were born into it all as an innocent child with no agency over yourself.

Believe me you, I broke out of my blueprint. I was certainly brainwashed to believe that women should do x, y, z, and that my greatest worth was how I looked, how slim I was, what I wore, what I owned, how sexual I was, who I was having sex with. Tragic.

I'm sorry people feel challenged by my use of the word 'spiritual' as it seems to have undermined my other points. I'm not religious and wasn't raised religious, I simply have developed a belief in a higher power as part of my recovery.

@LittleMissSunshiner and yet you sound like every other person who found spirituality later in life - self-rigorous, convinced they're right, self-absorbed and 100% sure they are not being influenced by anyone or anything despite parroting someone else's ideas and just engaging in self-serving escapism

and btw, i never held your beliefs about women so it sounds like you're just projecting your shit blueprint onto others

LOL I've go no idea what you're talking about and you don't know me so I would shut up banging on about it if I were you.

Regardless not interacting with you any longer because you're so hate filled and are not moving the discussion on.

Do you usually have issues with anyone who has worked recovery? Maybe you need recovery?

In case it's of any help to you, I used lots of different types of therapists and counsellors using many different methods from CBT to art therapy to psychodynamic and even psychoanalytic at one point (waste of time IMO), I needed medications and drug treatments and hospitalisation at certain times, I've been in lots of different types of groups and I've also worked 12 step programmes, used online resources and self-development programmes, books, tutorials, community groups, you name it.

Sorry you got stuck on the word spiritual but clearly its a trigger word that turns you into a hateful person. I'd work on that if I were you as there's tens of millions of people in the UK who either have an actual firm religion whether it be judaism, islam, christianity, catholicism, sikh, suffism, or a faith such as hare krishna or buddhism... or follow wicca or paganisma... and many more... or simply a personal spiritual belief more based in nature such as me.

You're going to have to live amongst them all whilst you believe in nothing which is your absolute right to do so, so you may as well learn how to drop the hate as you do sound hateful and that's not nice for you.

@PaintedEgg absolutely. Obviously as I bi woman I can't speak for lesbians, but one of my childhood best friends is a lesbian. She and her gf are both 'femme'. They love getting dressed up for dates with each other and have the most aesthetically pleasing home ever. In the unlikely event they ever split up, I'm sure they'll dress for the female gaze.

@PaintedEgg I don't think majority of things you have listed affect others when made as a personal choice.

I think this is where we just disagree because I and others have given examples of how we are affected by the choices of others. You think social norms are the problem and we are liberated if we can do away with judgement associated with them; I think social norms are an inevitable part of the human condition, over time we can question and change norms and we can become more tolerant of variance but only to an extent.

What I find odd is that you would like women to change their personal choices to fit your preferences...even in the most private areas of their lives. You probably don't even know what sort of sexual preferences your friends have and it's absolutely the right way to go about it, but you would like to educate them to make sure these preferences are not some of the things you don't like

I don't know where this assumption comes from. Because I don't see how it is evidenced, it reads as projection to me and reminds me of @CuriousAlien points about the possibility of feeling threatened by a different social value system and about her friend taking offense when she became vegetarian. I'm a threat to nobody's freedom but you wouldn't think it from reading the thread. And the things I don't "like" are the things which entrench sex inequality and counter women's emancipation.

The "can and should we do something" in the OP was basically questioning whether my assertion was correct or not and therefore the justification (or lack of) for wider initiatives e.g. “is a porn-critical sex education in school appropriate if it can be argued that it has a feminist (aka political or theoretical) bias and is it feasible if so?” Is it promoting a specific philosophy or is there objective evidence enough of the harms to women of certain activities to justify education from a feminist perspective?

@LittleMissSunshiner that's a lot of projection in one post...and in this context your nickname is quite ironic :)

@thedankness we discussed things like people having hookups or weird fetishes, to me this is firmly a part of private life and should not be subject to judgement from wider society

my main problem is that while we may try to change social norms to allow greater variety, changing them so that previously accepted things become unacceptable is basically just going round in circles...which in a way is what society has been doing for a long time for example going through phases of promotion of restrain and liberation

@Hubblebubble and I think this is great and just one aspect of human nature...nothing to do with men specifically, people (not just women) often derive some personal pleasure from their partner finding them attractive

With regards to hookups - I think it's perfectly possible to have hookups that are beneficial for women. I had a memorable experience with a gorgeous New Yorker on holiday which I don't regret for a second! However, the bar is currently on the floor for modern day one night stands. The more women who kid themselves that a quickie with three pump Peter (and a night listening to him snoring and farting in bed) represents the height of sexual liberation the harder it is for other women to expect more.

@jillgreen dating apps should have rating system like Uber 😂

Re sexist assumptions about men v women's body images etc, men get a right royal slating on here for being cyclists, they are figures of derision, so it does cut both ways.

The men look older?

I find women look often older, even if they are younger than their partner.

And the botox and fillers just make them look older. Much, much older.