Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

@OchonAgusOchonOh why do you need other people to not change their name to stick with yours? and if you don't need them to...then why do you care?

@CuriousAlien funnily enough it has been consistent theme in my life that people did try and change how i look and with each attempt it made me more defiant even if it is trivial

No skin off my nose what other people call themselves.

It's that revolting term 'maiden name' I can't stand. The meaning of 'maiden' is quite clear: a name to denote your sexual status. Imagine that same distinction being applied to men?

We all know this simply wouldn't happen. Family name or last name will do fine. Or, for a novel change, 'own' name.

Yes, I could - but at 18 years old, it honestly didn’t occur to me. And if it had, I probably wouldn't have done it, to spare my parents’ feelings. Getting married meant I could change it without upsetting anyone.

And I asked if it was OK, because the impression I have from this thread is that, having done something that is considered so I feminist, I have therefore utterly failed at feminism and should hand in my credentials immediately - whereas, as I said, I think we all do our best, and few, if any of us, will achieve perfection - but that doesn’t negate what we do.

@SerafinasGoose marital status if anything, which sure, used to be used interchangeably in theory, but in practice we have enough records of pregnant maidens to know how that went down 😜

Where did you get the notion that I need other people to not change their name in order for me to keep mine. I didn't change my name despite the best efforts of my il's who address post to me using my husband's surname and of the secretary in the dc's school whip also insisted on the same.

I really don't care what other people do. However I do find it amusing the hoops some women jump through to try and claim their decision to change theirs is somehow unrelated to patriarchical tradition.

I think you are reading an intent that doesn't exist into the thread.

so you admit that it doesn't matter if others change their name in which case- why do you care enough to even prompt women to talk about it?

I changed my name because husband had an older daughter who had his surname and we were planning more kids - we wanted siblings to have the same surname and I didn't want to be the only one in the family to have a different name. If it wasn't for this purely practical reason he would have probably taken on my surname as he liked it more than his

what hoops will you jump through to spin it to fit your narrative?

You seem very defensive about it all. It's a discussion board. It's a topic for discussion for those interested. No need to partake if you're not interested.

I don't jump through any hoops. I introduce myself using my name. If anyone inadvertently addresses me by the wrong name, I correct them. Very simple.

In-laws persist in addressing me as Mrs Hisname too. This is despite repeated requests to stop. More amusingly still, the day they ever address me by my actual title of 'Dr' is the day the world will stop spinning.

It's just rude, and is done to put women back into what others think should be our boxes. The in-laws are the most persistent example of this in my case, but they are by no means the only one.

I genuinely didn't think anyone else would give a crap what I call myself. (And I was married in 2008, so not a recent thing. I'm still receiving the pushback now).

It does seem that women who choose to use the name they've had from birth throughout our lifetimes receive more resistance, more ignoring of our actual name coupled with a bestowing of the one some others think we should have, and more plain rude, intrusive questioning, than women who do not.

I confess, it initially surprised me.

@OchonAgusOchonOh you've suggested women jump through hoops to explain something that really needs to explanation, you admitted it doesn't matter what others do because women individually will make this decision, you then imply its all because of patriarchy and when provided with examples of why some people may chose to change their name you call that being defensive

how exactly were you going to discuss anything if you discredit what people are saying about their own names?

for a record, when I was previously married and did not change my name the only pushback I ever got was when a CRM system could not understand that a married woman has no previous names, other than this nobody has ever questioned this, nobody even commented on it. I was never referred to with ex's last name either

so i wonder if its a society problem or if some of you have really nasty in-laws

My favourite was United Airlines. Not strictly speaking a name thing, but a title one.

I booked flights under my own name, own title, own credit card details. I was Passenger 1, DH Passenger 2, DC Passenger 3.

On rechecking the confirmed booking, DH had been promoted to Passenger #1 as Mr Hisname. Me, Dr Myname, was demoted to #2.

DH killed himself laughing over that one. Git!

what on earth? how does that even work? what about unmarried couples?

One thing that always comes to my mind is how in the past young women would be told they shouldn't wear makeup as they would look like a painted lady, a woman of the night, a slut etc. That all came from patriarchal Christian societal expectations didn't it? So now women can choose to wear it and we would be shocked if a woman was told don't wear it as you would look like a slut, we would think wtf, do you mean a woman who chooses to have sex for pleasure? A woman who can choose to go out in the evening and not be dismissed as a prostitute for doing so? How can abandoning make-up be the obviously right thing to do when it was men who decided it made women worthy of disrespect? What about what women think about women's make-up?? Fuck what they men think surely and work on empowering women to choose rather than be subtly or overtly pressured and not judge each other?

@PaintedEgg ah that makes sense. I don't think it's ever trivial.

Absolutely this!
Its so frighteningly common, especially among young women.

@CuriousAlien I think the more women's stories the better as it more accurately reflects our heterogeneity as humans and challenges the idea of a dominant narrative and its direct opposition, as you say. These things are not black and white.

What I question is the idea that the subjective narratives we tell ourselves about why we do something should be taken at face value. If more people of one “group” do a particular thing than another group, especially the larger the margin gets, then the subjective narrative can be dissected and objective conclusions made – the accuracy of which will depend on the strength of methodology and analysis.

@thedankness the thing is that there are more than one explanation as to why women do things

using example of "making ourselves more attractive"- the running narrative in this thread appears to be that young women are more easily manipulated and naive, while older women have greater sense of self and more self-esteem.

However, there is also a theory that older women become invisible anyway, so why bother? Surely it is better for our egos to act like we don't care. Even if we did extensive plastic surgery is dangerous and expensive, and aging would still catch up with us

sounds awful, right? but it is a theory and a popular one that women let themselves go with age - and some people believe it no matter how much individual women explain their actual attitudes

I have heard older women being made fun of for paying attention to their appearance, with the same assumption that they try to be young and pretty for others, as if elderly lady with makeup on was honestly hoping to score some tail at weekly bingo (some may! and good for them too)

@Vinoveritass I think the madonna/whore complex is alive and kicking and women have to choose which one they'd rather be.

@thedankness yes. The problem occurs when the subjective narrative of one group becomes so dominant that it overlays all others and causes harm (e.g. irreversible damage...)

I suppose what I am saying is that when you question someone's subjective narrative the chances are that you will provoke resistance (particularly with people who are already oppressed or have been oppressed) and find an impasse or fightback, even if you think your evidence is incontrovertible.

Letting people (supposing they want to) engage in testing their narratives without feeling threatened or as if their sense of self narrative is being taken away from them is what I'm suggesting. Listening, sharing, finding common ground. I'm not sure how hopeful I feel about it today as everything about these issues seems to destroy the middle ground. Then again I have found your thread really helpful, especially your open question and what has felt like you (and others) maintaining a strong sense of your own self and reasoning.

Not sure I made it clear but I take subjective narratives at face value as subjective narratives.

Then I am interested in reality testing. Evidence etc.
And that's what I hope to teach my children. Thoughts are not facts.
As a society we have to find a way to do this without everyone losing their shit.
But in this friction free world we seem to be creating that is not so easy.

No, I've suggested your aggressive approach is defensive.

I have not, and do not intend to, comment on any individual's decision. However, in my experience, many women who change their name on marriage do so because they buy in to the whole traditional concept. They then frequently jump through hoops to deny their decision has anything to do with the patriarchical tradition. I

@OchonAgusOchonOh how come any form of disagreement is seen as being defensive or aggressive on this forum? at best im being sarcastic because thread about women not supporting other women enough is full of women who undermine everything women say

you specifically mentioned jumping through hoops in reply to another poster describing her experience - in this case your general experience or what other women do / say does not matter, a woman telling you why she did something is the only person who knows why she did this

why is it so hard for some women on here to just accept what another women says at a face value? instead posters were called naive, brainwashed or in denial...

The only peron whose posts I've referred to as aggressive or defensive are yours.

And no, I did not refer to another poster's response as jumping through hoops. Perhaps try reading what is written.

@OchonAgusOchonOh but you referred to jumping to hoops in direct response, prompting the poster to day it feels like some decisions have to be "okayed"

and ok - im happy to be the aggressive poster :) i must have been insufficiently socialised as a woman to not softly reply pretty nasty assumptions that women make about other women