Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

Hmm I dunno

I used to be brainwashed and unconscious and other people still are, naturally. What other people call me is none of my business, I wouldn't care a jot because I'm not self conscious self obsessed and ego filled with anxiety about what others think of me, that's the whole point.

When one is awake and has had an awakening then one is no longer asleep and going through the motions of life that we were all imprinted and blueprinted and conditioned with. That is freedom IMO. The function of freedom is to free someone else.

Leave moths alone, they are beautiful! This is the elephant hawk moth, which is very colourful.

I do like make up and nail polish and wearing skirts and dresses, I don't shave, wear high heels or dye my greying hair. I wear colorful clothes. The rest of the stuff mentioned in the OP, like 'sex work', surrogacy, the idea that men treating women like sex objects is empowering, and that men can become women, if the stuff I really fight against. I know there's a whole conversation around make up, I wear it because I like colourful and sparkly things, I don't use it to cover my flaws. Currently got adult acne, like hell am I covering it up, it'll only make it worse!

@MercanDede Teeth straightening can and often is cosmetic. Your teeth need to be very poorly aligned to be considered in need of straightening. I know a few people who had slightly irregular teeth and had braces. (twice in one car). It was purely cosmetic.

I am not judging people for straightening their teeth for cosmetic reasons I am merely pointing out that there are some cosmetic practices that are widely acceptable. I just think it's worth thinking about that too.

Ironically this post makes you seem a bit brainwashed 😂

@LittleMissSunshiner right...I'll leave you to it as I don't think there is a point of discussing this topic in context of someone's spirituality, but you sound very blueprinted to me, exactly like every other spiritual person I have ever met

I wouldn't feel comfortable with a big hairy bush

Can we stop calling it this? I'm constantly amazed by women who consider themselves feminists yet talk about natural pubic hair with disdain (including most of my friends). Removing pubic hair is not a nice process whichever way you do it and, after years of this, I've had enough. You can do what you want with your hair but don't shame me for mine.

I’m not sure what my grandmothers would have said about that, but you concede the basic point: the behaviour of the individual affects the behaviour of the group and the behaviour of the group affects the individual.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I think there is a difference between conversation within society and what people do in private.

For example, there is a lot of conversation about keeping own surname after marriage and with growing acceptance more women who want to keep their surname do keep it. There should be, however, zero expectation either way, and someone who does change their surname to that of their husband should not be questioned because its none of yours or mine business.

I also think that people nowadays are simply more open about things - sex always existed, fetishes always existed, sex work and sex industry always existed, you don't need to normalise anything. However, all of these being spoken about in daylight means some people feel their brand of morality is being undermined...

@jillgreen I think your post illustrates why some people are so deep into other people's business - did you really feel ashamed by how another poster referred to her own hair?

I see it all the time online where person will say something about themselves and another person will feel attacked by it. It gets to a silly level where the language we use about ourselves gets to be scrutinised.

for all the talk about not being focused on one's body and appearance, some of you are so focused on both that you project what others do and say about themselves onto yourself

While you don't need to shave, wear makeup, change your surname or like sex just because someone else does, but it is unlikely that people will change what they do to make you feel better about yourself.

You mean the behaviour of the individual affects the group but it’s rude to say so?

i think it doesn't

What does?

In this case isn't it the behaviour of one individual effecting how another individual feels about herself? Bit of a rhetorical device to position one of them as "the group."
I'm not sure what our obligations should be to eachother. I might change how I talk about myself if it triggers someone I love, but a person otherwise unknown to me? Probably not.
Maybe that's the idea of the sisterhood - every woman is responsible for the wellbeing of every other woman.
@jillgreen if it helps, I call the hair on my pubis my bush because I love it. I have a special brush to make it super fluffy. I hate it at the end of the day when it's been flattened by my clothing and love to get back to bushy bush. But this is such an intimate and ideosyncratic feeling! There's no way I could say the way I feel about my bush is right, or anyone else is wrong.

These are all quite half formed thoughts for me, on a boozy Boxing Day afternnon. Thank you, everyone, for a thoughtful discussion.

The more I think about this the more conflicted I feel.
On the one hand I love the idea of the solidarity of the sisterhood.
On the other, reading the argument that, "You don't really enjoy make up / waxed pubes / erotic strangulation, you're only doing that to please men," reminds me of nothing more than Churchmen of the religious community I was raised in telling me, "You don't really enjoy dancing, you just want to flaunt yourself infront of men." Which, fuck off, I love dancing more than life and if there are no males around I actually love it more.

(I also have a story I could tell about my own father's reaction to my pre-teen self attempting to apply make-up made from beetroot juice mixed with sorbelene but even though we're strangers on this forum it's a little too raw, still).

It treats women like empty shells, whose actions can be understood only in terms of how they impact on male people, never in terms of the interior life of a woman herself (feelings, physical sensations, personal narratives, &c.).

@jillgreenI think your post illustrates why some people are so deep into other people's business - did you really feel ashamed by how another poster referred to her own hair?

There's a sizeable proportion of the population (men and women) who think natural pubic hair on women is disgusting and will openly refer to it as so. Plus another sizeable proportion who think it's unkempt or unsightly. Of course this makes other women feel ashamed, you'd have to have a very thick skin to not let that bother you.

Edit - kudos to all the thick skinned women here, I'm trying to be more like you!

@WhatWouldJeevesDo how groups treats this individual and their choices matters more than what these choices are - this is social pressure after all. women shaming other women is vile whether you do it for shaving or not shaving..:or any other thing on the list. It's still trying to enforce your preference as a norm, as if two things could not be widely accepted

I think cosmetic teeth straightening is really a myth. Teeth whitening that is 100% cosmetic, but straightening isn’t. I’ve travelled all over and it’s only the U.K. that thinks it is cosmetic.

Yes, You do need your teeth to be very poorly aligned to get free braces on the NHS, but that doesn’t mean teeth that are less crooked are not also going to cause long term health issues. In addition, it isn’t just the appearance of teeth it is also the bite.

So many people who get braces and their teeth look to only slightly irregular, it is because of their bite and they will have been advised by their dentist and orthodontist that it is better to spend the £7k now on teeth straightening than much more in dental bills later in life. Even slightly irregular teeth can cause gum recession, gum disease and increased tooth decay because of overlapping, inability to clean between teeth and so on.

Likewise there is a fair population of women that sneer at others because they weat makeup.

think of it as a marmite of body grooming - people either love it or hate it, but you shouldn't feel ashamed of your preference. If you think about it - it is very weird to even have an opinion about somebody else's body hair and with that perspective it's much easier to care less about what other think about your body hair. They're being weird, not you

Sounds a lot like you are describing and lamenting the sin of vanity in women, only wrapped a faux feminist ribbon.

speaking of vanity - its funny how when men do things for vanity its framed as dedication and ambition (exercises, fitness diets, investing in expensive cars...), and nobody will think a man brainwashed or not enlightened enough if he pays attention to clothes he wears or is very much into his facial hair care (maybe some people joke about hipster beards, but its nowhere near as malicious as what women endure)...

anything women do for vanity is supposedly a proof of some sort of bad character trait or at least being uninformed, and that's a view promoted by other women as well

sisterhood my a*, sisters

Would you say there are some choices that do matter, or that you can never make any assertions that some choices are "better" than others?

What about there being usefulness to social pressure?

I also think we need to make the distinctions between actual, IRL, individual shaming, controlling or lecturing, group social media shaming or bullying, making an internal judgement and acting accordingly, political lobbying, and having a discussion on a relevant pseudo-anonymous forum for the purpose of debating ideas.

@thedankness I don't think majority of things you have listed affect others when made as a personal choice.

What I find odd is that you would like women to change their personal choices to fit your preferences...even in the most private areas of their lives. You probably don't even know what sort of sexual preferences your friends have and it's absolutely the right way to go about it, but you would like to educate them to make sure these preferences are not some of the things you don't like

Is there a difference in motive though? Men do these things for themselves because they want to and it makes them feel good- no one will judge them if they don't do this stuff. Women do these things because it's expected and they are judged by others when they don't.

Yes, it is assumed that everything women do that affects our appearance or mannerisms is done for “the male gaze” (keep in mind this was a film studies theory about the female lead in a film being presented as an object of desire for hetero male viewers, it’s not meant to be applied to all women in society).

But when men do similar, it’s assumed to be self-improvement.

We give men agency but not women.

Ha! Cross post, but proves my point on sexist assumptions.