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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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AlecTrevelyan006 · 21/12/2023 16:40

probabilistically?

is that an actual word?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 18:53

That's a good point but it's also Dr Alice Sullivan's home institution.

RethinkingLife · 21/12/2023 18:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 18:53

That's a good point but it's also Dr Alice Sullivan's home institution.

The paper lists AS' current affiliation as UCL (doesn't mean that she wasn't associated with KCL at another point).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 19:22

Yes, you are correct, apologies. I'm sure there was someone at KCL though.

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 20:43

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/12/2023 14:03

This is absolutely top class trolling. Well done those researchers. I hope they get thousands of citations.

It is really a top effort.

MrGHardy · 21/12/2023 21:00

"Objectives To test the hypothesis that, controlling for age, natal-sex differences in running performance are lower among non-binary athletes than in the rest of the population. To test the hypothesis that natal-male non-binary athletes outperform natal-female non-binary athletes".

If ever, ever, there was more useless 'study'. As if 'identifying' as non-binary magically would erase all existing evidence that males are faster/stronger than females. As if.

Krampussy · 21/12/2023 21:11

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/12/2023 14:06

‘Since the race results do not provide the sex of non-binary athletes, the sex of non-binary athletes was either derived from previous races they had run, or where this wasn’t available, the researchers used a novel technique to model the sex of athletes probabilistically based on their given names’
😂

Or just by looking at them.

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2023 21:16

This is too funny. Kudos to those researchers.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 21/12/2023 21:21

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 21/12/2023 13:14

Results There was no evidence that controlling for age, natal-sex differences in running performance are lower among non-binary athletes. Natal-male non-binary athletes outperform natal-female non-binary athletes at a confidence level of p=0.1%.
Conclusions Both natal sex and gender identity may be useful explanatory variables for the performance of athletes in mass-participation races. It is, therefore, valuable to include both variables in data collection.

So gender identity makes no difference to performance, but might explain (non-existent) differences in performance?

Of course gender identity makes a difference to performance. If you don't know the gender identity how would you know how to assess levels of stunning and brave?

MrGHardy · 21/12/2023 21:25

This Tweet (or is it now this X) is very insightful re my comment of this being the obvious:

x.com/johnarmstrong5/status/1737788685016252661?s=20

FrancescaContini · 22/12/2023 02:50

AlecTrevelyan006 · 21/12/2023 16:40

probabilistically?

is that an actual word?

Probabilistically

FrancescaContini · 22/12/2023 02:55

“A novel technique…based on their given names”: but what if the athlete had changed name or had a “non-binary” name - how would the researchers have been able to know the sex of the athlete? I mean, what other method could they have used? 🤦‍♀️

Riapia · 22/12/2023 06:32

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2023 14:16

And the sky isn’t blue either.

HTH

Show quote history

And light is invisible.

Meadowgrasses · 22/12/2023 06:39

This is brilliant. It’s so obvious but so barmy that they’ve studied it anyway. And then written about it in a dead-pan comedy genius paper. Heroes!

HagoftheNorth · 22/12/2023 06:53

Desperate that medical research resources have been wasted on this completely obvious study

Even more desperate that this study is absolutely required and no doubt we’ll be referencing it regularly over the next few years

i hope the narcissistic drivers of this nonsense are happy that it is taking time and attention from the actual issues our societies face (poverty, climate change, international relations…)

SabrinaThwaite · 22/12/2023 09:36

I wonder if this paper could be put forward for an Ig Nobel award?

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 22/12/2023 11:14

I think it qualifies. improbable.com/ig/about-the-ig-nobel-prizes/ig-nobel-nominations/?amp=1

PurpleSparkledPixie · 22/12/2023 11:29

< sighs >

I thought this was going to be another one of those stupid things as we are continually being told we are racist if we deny the fabulous ones. You know... non-binary age, non-binary sex, non-binary race. But no. It's about non-binaries actually running in competitions.

Twizzletoe · 22/12/2023 11:38

@HagoftheNorth this type of research often appears in the Christmas time BMJ too. I suspect that the researchers did this in their own time because of their own passion for the topic. Perhaps a shame that their novel technique was not extended to include the trusty “endofbedogram” also known as “eyeballing” a clinical technique that is often a rich source of information.

Ofcourseshecan · 22/12/2023 13:11

But it is useful when research confirms what most people have observed, or what common sense leads most people to believe. Saying “Everyone knows that XYZ” is easy to contradict if you have no data to support XYZ.

I don’t know how many people were counted in the study Hellebore quotes. But it shows some unsurprising connections, especially with mental health problems.

Data gathered on gender non-conforming college students by the American College Health Association suggest that gender non-conforming students are less likely to meet exercise recommendations, have increased rates of obesity and have higher rates of physical and mental health issues; these factors affect levels of fitness and training status.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 13:21

I agree @Ofcourseshecan

Because if you don't have an actual paper to link to, a TRA interlocutor will just post some guff from Scientific American or some "study" of 8 MTFs and say "see you're just ignoring the science!"

ChateauMargaux · 22/12/2023 13:26

Yeah... but given the results..

Results: There was no evidence that controlling for age, natal-sex differences in running performance are lower among non-binary athletes. Natal-male non-binary athletes outperform natal-female non-binary athletes at a confidence level of p=0.1%.

How can they conclude that gender identty is a useful explanatory variable?? or that there is any value in including gender identity as a variable.

Conclusions Both natal sex and gender identity may be useful explanatory variables for the performance of athletes in mass-participation races. It is, therefore, valuable to include both variables in data collection.

To me.. it seems an illogical conclusion based on the results.

DrivingonIce · 22/12/2023 13:59

ChateauMargaux · 22/12/2023 13:26

Yeah... but given the results..

Results: There was no evidence that controlling for age, natal-sex differences in running performance are lower among non-binary athletes. Natal-male non-binary athletes outperform natal-female non-binary athletes at a confidence level of p=0.1%.

How can they conclude that gender identty is a useful explanatory variable?? or that there is any value in including gender identity as a variable.

Conclusions Both natal sex and gender identity may be useful explanatory variables for the performance of athletes in mass-participation races. It is, therefore, valuable to include both variables in data collection.

To me.. it seems an illogical conclusion based on the results.

Edited

I think:

Gender identity was a significant factor when the sex was the same.

Sex was the significant factor when all participants had the same gender identity.

DrivingonIce · 22/12/2023 14:00

Although the performance gap remained similar, the absolute values were lower for these participants vs an average population.

That's worth knowing.