Page 29 | "Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

ButterflyHatched · 2023-12-20T17:44:15+00:00

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to. [[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance ‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian]]

TheClogLady · 30/12/2023 13:34

Do you mean Fionne and Miranda Yardley, Nothing?

https://mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

(I’m quite fond of Mir and wouldn’t want DH to get credit for Mir’s work!)

A Plea for Third Spaces for Transmen and Transwomen - Miranda Yardley

We are asking you to support our call for the provision of Third Spaces for transgender individuals of both sexes.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/12/2023 13:39

Datun · 30/12/2023 13:11

What I don't quite understand is, if butterfly passes flawlessly, and all their friends and relations insist they use female facilities, however much I might disagree, what's butterfly's problem? What's the point of all the posting? And the angst.

So much of it comes over as a repressed fury at women voicing opinions without male permission? Many of those who rock up on here seem similar to the thugs standing outside women's meetings - intimidating and issuing threats of sexual violence.

Mumsnet is a community of women and that's always been a threat to men and their opinions. There's a determination to put these women right because there's no understanding of women's issues, no empathy. Just a tedious overwhelming self importance.

It's a return to the old Victorian values - women back in the home and away from the public sphere, obeying the demands of old fashioned toxic men.

OldCrone · 30/12/2023 13:41

nothingcomestonothing · 30/12/2023 13:29

Fionne Orlander and Debbie Hayton did start a campaign for third spaces. It got no support at all from any trans lobby groups, Stonewall, vocal TRAs, no one. FO used to frequently post photos in male toilets, and said they had never had any issues, aggression, anything untoward happen in men's single sex spaces, despite being slight with long hair, make up, dresses etc. Fionne said sometimes a man would come in whilst Fionne was hand washing and apologise for being in the wrong place, Fionne would say 'no you're in the right place, this is the men's' and everyone would go about their day.

There is as you say, no evidence at all that transwomen are not safe in male spaces. And third spaces could have happened, if Stonewall and all the TRAs in the civil service and all the other captured institutions had wanted it. It didn't, because they didn't and don't want it. They want the women's space, with the women in it, nothing else will do.

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It was Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley, not Debbie Hayton.

Edit: I didn't see there was another page and @TheClogLady had already posted this.

Helleofabore · 30/12/2023 13:42

TheClogLady · 30/12/2023 13:29

And what exactly has Hatch been hiding for 20 plus years if Hatch’s friends and family all know that Hatch is male?

This is the point.

Because apparently they are so very successful with their job roles too according to them.

WickedSerious · 30/12/2023 13:55

FrippEnos · 30/12/2023 11:25

I was about to post exactly the same thing.
For all of the "we are not safe with the males", I have never seen any evidence only the "we feel" line being brought out.
For all we know it could be that most males refuse to call trans people by their chosen pronouns.

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That'll do it;literal violence,denying my existence etc.

SapphireSeptember · 30/12/2023 14:05

@TheClogLady There was a post on Fionne's Twitter page a while ago that had me rolling. He was talking about using the men's loos, being asked if he knows it's the guys' loos, saying he did, and the bloke he was talking to said he was a very pretty guy. Someone in the comments took exception to this, and went off about him making men uncomfortable. Because of course making men uncomfortable is dreadful, but making women uncomfortable is fine and dandy. I couldn't swear to it, but I think the person making the stupid comment was a woman. 🤦🏻‍♀️

nothingcomestonothing · 30/12/2023 14:31

TheClogLady · 30/12/2023 13:34

Do you mean Fionne and Miranda Yardley, Nothing?

https://mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

(I’m quite fond of Mir and wouldn’t want DH to get credit for Mir’s work!)

Yes Miranda Yardley, don't know how I got Debbie Hayton in there instead!

Tallisker · 30/12/2023 14:45

Hayton insists on using the Ladies, IIRC, even though well aware women do not like it.

ApocalipstickNow · 30/12/2023 16:37

I imagine there’s places where transwomen are at risk in toilets.

Id imagine there’s lots where they’re not.

I’ve said before I used to drink in 3 pubs that were also frequented by 2 cross dressers/tw (I know back then we saw them as cross dressers, one had a female persona when dressed up I do not know how they identify now as I don’t drink so don’t go round the pubs anymore). Anyway, they used the men’s. They were regulars. They didn’t get grief for their appearance. Strangers sometimes were uncomfortable when they saw them in the gents but generally they were just another couple of drinkers.

These were regular pubs, not particularly LGBT friendly, just ordinary pubs.

Id imagine anywhere with a rainbow or progress pride flag is a safe bet that TW are safe.

Shopping centres anmd supermarkets are probably ok? Never heard of men being assaulted in them, willing to be corrected of course.

Most workplaces? Is there a big problem of colleague on colleague violence?

Unknown pubs, train stations at night probably are a different matter. Night clubs.

But I’d imagine it’s possible to find safe places.

Original poster

ButterflyHatched · 30/12/2023 16:52

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 16:23

It's not even that though.

It's campaigning for the able bodies to go to places they are physically able to, but socially aren't accepted/banned because you have a disability that you are using to campaign for the previous group and then saying it's not fair to either group without thought as to why these people were separated for safety reasons in the first place.

It's bonkers!

The second you say that you are the same as a group that aren't disadvantaged and aren't tiny in number (it basically includes all men), you make life more difficult for yourself. You don't get to blame this decision making on women!

If you are a woman you'd fight for women's protections rather than trying to undermine them by identifying with people who think they can change sex when they can't.

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I love a good No True Scotsman

OP posts:

JanesLittleGirl · 30/12/2023 16:57

ButterflyHatched · 30/12/2023 16:52

I love a good No True Scotsman

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Congratulations! That is a full 90 degree deflection.

Original poster

ButterflyHatched · 30/12/2023 17:00

FrippEnos · 29/12/2023 17:57

but you are trans and not intersex.

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I'm trans AND I have an intersex condition.

OP posts:

StragglyTinsel · 30/12/2023 17:00

Except the Scotsman in question is in fact a sassenach, not a Scot.

The whole point of ‘if you were a woman’ is that it’s not an in-group claim.

If you were a badger, wouldn’t be posting on MN. But you’re not a badger.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 30/12/2023 17:04

ApocalipstickNow · 30/12/2023 16:37

I imagine there’s places where transwomen are at risk in toilets.

Id imagine there’s lots where they’re not.

I’ve said before I used to drink in 3 pubs that were also frequented by 2 cross dressers/tw (I know back then we saw them as cross dressers, one had a female persona when dressed up I do not know how they identify now as I don’t drink so don’t go round the pubs anymore). Anyway, they used the men’s. They were regulars. They didn’t get grief for their appearance. Strangers sometimes were uncomfortable when they saw them in the gents but generally they were just another couple of drinkers.

These were regular pubs, not particularly LGBT friendly, just ordinary pubs.

Id imagine anywhere with a rainbow or progress pride flag is a safe bet that TW are safe.

Shopping centres anmd supermarkets are probably ok? Never heard of men being assaulted in them, willing to be corrected of course.

Most workplaces? Is there a big problem of colleague on colleague violence?

Unknown pubs, train stations at night probably are a different matter. Night clubs.

But I’d imagine it’s possible to find safe places.

Not to mention that if women don't feel safe somewhere the onus is on them to change their behaviour, stay home, get a taxi, don't wear a short skirt but no-one ever suggests that TW should just pop on jeans and a T-shirt if they are heading to the pub and that way they wouldn't get a second look in the mens and they would be dressed like the majority of women too.

Oh and for the benefit of any doubt I don't think women should be told what is and isn't OK to wear but if it is sauce the goose it really ought to be sauce for the gander trans goose too. If you want to be treated like a woman then you can't pick a choose which bits of womanhood you want so you have to feel the fear and get the scolding.

StragglyTinsel · 30/12/2023 17:14

If male humans in dresses and lipstick are at risk of violence in the men’s toilets, this is not women’s problem to solve. Not our monkeys, not our circus.

And don’t start going on about empathy and compassion. Women know all about the risks of male violence. Why should the solution for some men be that they commandeer the female toilets?

Original poster

ButterflyHatched · 30/12/2023 17:16

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 30/12/2023 17:04

Not to mention that if women don't feel safe somewhere the onus is on them to change their behaviour, stay home, get a taxi, don't wear a short skirt but no-one ever suggests that TW should just pop on jeans and a T-shirt if they are heading to the pub and that way they wouldn't get a second look in the mens and they would be dressed like the majority of women too.

Oh and for the benefit of any doubt I don't think women should be told what is and isn't OK to wear but if it is sauce the goose it really ought to be sauce for the gander trans goose too. If you want to be treated like a woman then you can't pick a choose which bits of womanhood you want so you have to feel the fear and get the scolding.

Edited

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Plenty of people sadly do still try and blame victims of sexual assault for crimes against them but I don't think you'll find much crossover with people who want all women (including trans women) to be safe from harm.

OP posts:

BezMills · 30/12/2023 17:19

SinnerBoy · 30/12/2023 05:39

nothingcomestonothing · Yesterday 17:52

Do you think any of the women here wouldn't be all over a compromise, if one existed? That we're in this because it's fun to be threatened with rape, have our children doxxed, our employers harassed?

There is a simple, cheap compromise: unisex spaces, but the trans zealots aren't interested in anything other than Total Victory.

"Total validation" by Service Female Units

Nobody is asking straight men to validate male gender identity or spending untold hours on man forums scolding them for not doing so. Because A the answer is usually a simple FUCK OFF and B misogyny.

Tallisker · 30/12/2023 17:19

Transwomen are not women.

Tallisker · 30/12/2023 17:19

Stop force teaming.

MargotBamborough · 30/12/2023 17:22

ButterflyHatched · 30/12/2023 17:16

Plenty of people sadly do still try and blame victims of sexual assault for crimes against them but I don't think you'll find much crossover with people who want all women (including trans women) to be safe from harm.

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What word can we use for ourselves which doesn't include trans women then?

And what single sex spaces can we use which don't include trans women?

WickedSerious · 30/12/2023 17:24

Trans women are con men.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 30/12/2023 17:30

Plenty of people sadly do still try and blame victims of sexual assault for crimes against them

Eerm yes I know - that was the point of my post - a big part of female socialisation is how not to draw attention, how to avoid scary situations, how to placate men and when we say we don't want to share spaces with males we are still told to stay at home , to "reframe our trauma". How can we tell tw are not women? Because we aren't allowed to tell them no!

TWETMIRF · 30/12/2023 17:33

Anything to say about your blatant transphobia regarding toilets Butterfly? Transwomen have shown that they are perfectly safe using the gents so the safety excuse for using the ladies is false. You insisting that transwomen should use the ladies is transphobic as you're ignoring and invalidating people with other genders.

The gents for males of any gender and ladies for any gender makes sure that ALL genders and those that don't have one are catered for.

It's funny how most of the transphobia comes from trans people and TRAs who keep asserting that trans people can't possibly be expected to follow rules and have respect for other people

Woman2023 · 30/12/2023 19:30

I don't think you'll find much crossover with people who want all women (including trans women)

Please stop using the wrong term "all women" when you mean women and some men. "Trans women" are men, "all women" doesn't include any men.

FrippEnos · 30/12/2023 19:34

all women (including trans women)

There's that tricky change of meaning again.