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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

OP posts:
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RufustheFactualReindeer · 02/01/2024 11:28

Yes it was dial 🤣🤣🤣🤣

StragglyTinsel · 02/01/2024 11:30

Finally, no poster has denied that this poster ‘exists’. That is just more hyperbole and emotional manipulation. They exist. They post on MN.

To be fair, I have denied that the (inconsistent) character Butterfly plays on MN exists. There is very clearly a real person - and we can all agree this person is male - making the posts. But the delighted and perfectly transitioned - yet hopelessly excluded from society and riddled with side effects - character is (I’m absolutely convinced) largely a work of fiction for rhetorical purposes. I simply do not believe the story Butterfly spins about themselves and their ‘lived experiences’ is true. Some parts of it may be. But it is crystal clear that other parts are total fabrication.

That has no bearing on whether trans people exist at all. Any more than the existence of fantasists on evil MIL threads (or whatever) has any bearing on whether MILs exist.

I do think that Butterfly is so angry and desperate to claim everything is about denial of existence partly because Butterfly knows full well that the character they’re playing on MN is to some extent a work of fiction.

It’s that accusations are confessions thing to some extent. At least that is how I interpret all this ‘how dare you deny my existence’ stuff on MN.

There’s also the weirdness where Butterfly insists that they are a super special outlier - they are not just trans but have a DSD; they pass perfectly making them not like other trans people, and so on. Yet apparently Butterfly speaks for and knows the ‘lived experiences’ of trans people. it’s almost as if everyone, women and trans people are merely scenery and props in the Tale of ButterflyHatched.

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 11:31

DialSquare · 02/01/2024 11:27

Wasn't it India Willoughby who said that TERFs should have their own facilities and was surprised when loads of women said they would be very happy with that?!!!!

LOL!

Why not?

Just label the women's toilets "TERFs with vaginas" and the men's toilets "special penis people and allies".

Everyone's happy.

Job done.

Datun · 02/01/2024 11:35

StragglyTinsel · 02/01/2024 11:30

Finally, no poster has denied that this poster ‘exists’. That is just more hyperbole and emotional manipulation. They exist. They post on MN.

To be fair, I have denied that the (inconsistent) character Butterfly plays on MN exists. There is very clearly a real person - and we can all agree this person is male - making the posts. But the delighted and perfectly transitioned - yet hopelessly excluded from society and riddled with side effects - character is (I’m absolutely convinced) largely a work of fiction for rhetorical purposes. I simply do not believe the story Butterfly spins about themselves and their ‘lived experiences’ is true. Some parts of it may be. But it is crystal clear that other parts are total fabrication.

That has no bearing on whether trans people exist at all. Any more than the existence of fantasists on evil MIL threads (or whatever) has any bearing on whether MILs exist.

I do think that Butterfly is so angry and desperate to claim everything is about denial of existence partly because Butterfly knows full well that the character they’re playing on MN is to some extent a work of fiction.

It’s that accusations are confessions thing to some extent. At least that is how I interpret all this ‘how dare you deny my existence’ stuff on MN.

There’s also the weirdness where Butterfly insists that they are a super special outlier - they are not just trans but have a DSD; they pass perfectly making them not like other trans people, and so on. Yet apparently Butterfly speaks for and knows the ‘lived experiences’ of trans people. it’s almost as if everyone, women and trans people are merely scenery and props in the Tale of ButterflyHatched.

Very well observed.

And yes, the wavering inconsistency and contradictions, interspersed with the aggressive assertions is very weird to read.

ButterflyHatched · 02/01/2024 11:44

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2024 11:02

Let's talk about identity.

TRAs would have you believe it's only individual. The movement is neo-liberal individualism.

Yet they also understand how this is not true. And demonstrate it with the attempts to crowd control women.

Take my friends. They raised two boys. When talking to new people one of the first questions they will be asked is 'do you have children?' and then about whether girls or boys. This is polite conversation and it's about developing a relational identity and finding common ground. If my friends tell the truth and say they have two boys and raised two boys, they get to identify with the person asking the question and it helps them develop a relationship. If they reply one boy and one girl it puts them into a position where it gets very complicated very quickly because they can't make those connections in the same way as they don't have those experiences. If they answer 'well it's complicated' they end up not making a connection too because they don't know the other party's politics and how they will react to them not being fully signed up to the ideology and there the whole minefield of someone asking a question that's polite and 'easy' precisely because they don't want to be bogged down in difficult politics and full on conversations at the point of meeting.

And then there's the fairly obvious point about the trans movement desperately seeking that relationship identity of woman by force which they can't because they aren't women and haven't had the lived experiences of being a woman. So they have to force the issue and remove women's capacity to explain that relationship and have that relationship.

Both are acts of trying to isolate another party from their own identity. It has an impact and it's harmful.

This is why I have one to the conclusion that I am not going to participate in this with my brother. My history is I have a brother. That is my identity. It's how I relate to others. By telling the truth. Lying isolates me and removes my identity. It is abusive to force me or to tell me that I have a sister.

I don't. That's NOT my lived experience. It is important to my identity and well being and my relationships to be able to have my own identity.

And why the fuck shouldn't I have my OWN identity based on reality? Why much I capitulate to the demands of others at the detriment and harm to myself.

If you want to be a trans-woman. Fine. Not a problem. But you aren't a woman. Nor can you have the lived experiences of a woman not the vulnerabilities of a woman. If you feel threatened by men, that's not for women to fix at a risk to themselves.

Women are women. And only females can be women. Females can not be trans-women. And that's the entire issue in a nutshell which can not be negotiated or compromised because material reality.

Thanks for partially answering the question. I'm sorry you decided that your gender critical ideology is more important than your relationship with your sister. I hope you were able to see her over the holiday period and have a pleasant time, but it sounds like there is quite a significant rift between the two of you especially if you've been this hostile to her for the last 18 years.

I know a tiny fragment of how being on the receiving end of that feels - when I transitioned at school, my sister was so afraid of getting caught in the blast radius of the bullying that there were a few months where she was saying she wished I'd never told her. This was very characteristic of how she handled issues at that time - she just buried her head in the sand and tried to pretend they weren't happening, dealing with familial mortality the same way.

Once she saw the shit I had to wade through every day, though, and how I was just trying to live my life, she swiftly rallied and went to town on anyone who tried it when she was around. We've been very close for the last two decades, and I have the great honour of being an integral part of her life including helping her bring up her children.

I hope you'll be able to one day reconcile with your sister, and that she will be able to find the strength within herself to forgive you.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 02/01/2024 11:46

Men aren’t a marginalised minority.

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 11:52

ButterflyHatched · 02/01/2024 11:44

Thanks for partially answering the question. I'm sorry you decided that your gender critical ideology is more important than your relationship with your sister. I hope you were able to see her over the holiday period and have a pleasant time, but it sounds like there is quite a significant rift between the two of you especially if you've been this hostile to her for the last 18 years.

I know a tiny fragment of how being on the receiving end of that feels - when I transitioned at school, my sister was so afraid of getting caught in the blast radius of the bullying that there were a few months where she was saying she wished I'd never told her. This was very characteristic of how she handled issues at that time - she just buried her head in the sand and tried to pretend they weren't happening, dealing with familial mortality the same way.

Once she saw the shit I had to wade through every day, though, and how I was just trying to live my life, she swiftly rallied and went to town on anyone who tried it when she was around. We've been very close for the last two decades, and I have the great honour of being an integral part of her life including helping her bring up her children.

I hope you'll be able to one day reconcile with your sister, and that she will be able to find the strength within herself to forgive you.

This is the pp post My brother came out as trans in 2006

Why are you changing that to sister?

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 11:54

@ButterflyHatched Will you answer my question before the thread closes?

Or can we just assume that you don't give a shit about anyone's lived experience except your own?

TWETMIRF · 02/01/2024 11:54

I can break Butterfly's post down to sister prioritises her own needs = bad, sister ignores her own and puts brother first = good

SamW98 · 02/01/2024 11:55

TWETMIRF · 02/01/2024 11:54

I can break Butterfly's post down to sister prioritises her own needs = bad, sister ignores her own and puts brother first = good

With added - me me me me me it’s all about meeeeeeeeeeee

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 11:56

TWETMIRF · 02/01/2024 11:54

I can break Butterfly's post down to sister prioritises her own needs = bad, sister ignores her own and puts brother first = good

Because trans women = women, whereas actual women = emotional support animals.

TheClogLady · 02/01/2024 11:57

‘Coming out as trans’ could mean nonbinary, but as shown upthread, Butters is carelessly transphobic about nonbinary people.

Butters seems to think all trans people are like Butters, only less good at ‘passing’

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 11:57

TWETMIRF · 02/01/2024 11:54

I can break Butterfly's post down to sister prioritises her own needs = bad, sister ignores her own and puts brother first = good

It’s an unbelievably arrogant and dismissive thing to do. Change the sex of a pp sibling in that way

ApocalipstickNow · 02/01/2024 11:58

“Not your kind of lived experience.”

BackToLurk · 02/01/2024 12:00

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 11:54

@ButterflyHatched Will you answer my question before the thread closes?

Or can we just assume that you don't give a shit about anyone's lived experience except your own?

I don't think @ButterflyHatched answers any questions do they? I assume this is an exercise in onanism for them.

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 12:00

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 11:57

It’s an unbelievably arrogant and dismissive thing to do. Change the sex of a pp sibling in that way

Yup.

Almost as if @ButterflyHatched can't comprehend the fact that @RedToothBrush is actually the main character in the story of her own life, not merely a supporting character in her brother's life, and she gets to tell the story the way she wants.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who erroneously believes that we are all just supporting characters in their own life.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 02/01/2024 12:01

Thanks for partially answering the question

are you taking the piss?

Datun · 02/01/2024 12:04

TWETMIRF · 02/01/2024 11:54

I can break Butterfly's post down to sister prioritises her own needs = bad, sister ignores her own and puts brother first = good

Of course. And helping her raise her children, I'm guessing is, send them a card on their birthday. If I remember.

DialSquare · 02/01/2024 12:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StragglyTinsel · 02/01/2024 12:07

RufustheFactualReindeer · 02/01/2024 12:01

Thanks for partially answering the question

are you taking the piss?

This kind of passive aggressive and totally hypocritical response makes it clear that Butterfly is doing it on purpose.

Datun · 02/01/2024 12:11

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 12:00

Yup.

Almost as if @ButterflyHatched can't comprehend the fact that @RedToothBrush is actually the main character in the story of her own life, not merely a supporting character in her brother's life, and she gets to tell the story the way she wants.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who erroneously believes that we are all just supporting characters in their own life.

Butterfly is attempting to force a random person, on an anonymous website, to deny reality and call their brother a girl.

What the fuck chance did their own sister have?

Datun · 02/01/2024 12:13

StragglyTinsel · 02/01/2024 12:07

This kind of passive aggressive and totally hypocritical response makes it clear that Butterfly is doing it on purpose.

Exactly.

It's highly calculated to offend. And butterfly fondly thinks they have plausible deniability.

it's not exactly subtle, is it 🤣

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 02/01/2024 12:16

There is never an answer to why excluding TWs from women's spaces is untenable but the exclusion of women who can't/don't want to share spaces with TW is A OK. It's almost as if no TW wants to admit that they are more important than women.

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 12:19

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 12:00

Yup.

Almost as if @ButterflyHatched can't comprehend the fact that @RedToothBrush is actually the main character in the story of her own life, not merely a supporting character in her brother's life, and she gets to tell the story the way she wants.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who erroneously believes that we are all just supporting characters in their own life.

It’s a mix of male arrogance and gender belief that is so harmful. The posts make me think of smirking male street hasslers

Backed by the current law unfortunately

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2024 12:19

Red, I'd be really interested to hear you talk more about online communities if you wanted to make a thread.

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