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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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BezMills · 20/12/2023 19:08

Willoboaby is a pure muppet

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 19:24

Brianna's mum stumbled on a post on Mumsnet where trans issues were being argued over in relation to Brianna. It seems to have upset her.

Please bear that in mind.

When Brianna died, her status as a member of the trans community entered the spotlight, and some individuals online spouted hateful, transphobic comments toward Brianna's family.

As a result of this 'trolling,' Esther had to close down a fundraising page that was set up in Brianna's name.

Esther said: "One of the things I saw was on Mumsnet – I just happened upon a mother who was having a negative debate about it.

"But I thought, how can you, as a mother, have these strong opinions and not empathise? Can you not put yourself in that same situation?'

"When I saw it I felt that feeling bubble up."

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/23586765.brianna-gheys-mum-says-i-need-like-her/

Brianna Ghey's mum says she needs to be 'more like daughter' and not hide away

The mum of Brianna Ghey, who was killed in February, said she needs to be more like her daughter, and explains why she is not 'hiding away.'

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/23586765.brianna-gheys-mum-says-i-need-like-her

PonyPatter44 · 20/12/2023 19:31

That's odd, because there has been very little discussion about Brianna's death on MN up until now. People who were unkind about her trans status immediately after her murder were mainly told to STFU.

Good job her mum didn't read Reddit or Tattle.

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 19:33

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 19:24

Brianna's mum stumbled on a post on Mumsnet where trans issues were being argued over in relation to Brianna. It seems to have upset her.

Please bear that in mind.

When Brianna died, her status as a member of the trans community entered the spotlight, and some individuals online spouted hateful, transphobic comments toward Brianna's family.

As a result of this 'trolling,' Esther had to close down a fundraising page that was set up in Brianna's name.

Esther said: "One of the things I saw was on Mumsnet – I just happened upon a mother who was having a negative debate about it.

"But I thought, how can you, as a mother, have these strong opinions and not empathise? Can you not put yourself in that same situation?'

"When I saw it I felt that feeling bubble up."

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/23586765.brianna-gheys-mum-says-i-need-like-her/

Poor Esther. My heart goes out to her and the rest of the family - at least today will bring some measure of relief and closure even though it can't hope to stem the tide of grief.

bellac11 · 20/12/2023 19:33

We barely here about most child on child murders, kids get stabbed all the time. The motive is usually, as in this case, that the perpetrator is a murderous thug and wants to harm someone in anger

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 19:33

There was a lot on MN immediately after it happened. It's all deleted now thankfully.

I think we can trust Brianna's mother as to whether she was upset by posts on MN or not.

PonyPatter44 · 20/12/2023 19:36

Ah ok, I missed it all (not sorry for missing it, either - whatever your views on TW, it's out of order to use the murder of a child for political point-scoring).

puffyisgood · 20/12/2023 19:40

Brianna's mother has lost a child, which is the worst thing that ever happened to any woman. I can't think she'd give two hoots about am online stranger who sympathised incredibly strongly but who believed that this tragically murdered child was a boy for a full 16 years of tragically truncated life rather than a boy for 14 and then girl for 2.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 20/12/2023 19:41

The case has and will continue to be used for political point making.

I even feel that the style of reporting on this case is due to background lobbying. ITV seemed to report on this case (to my mind) very differently.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 19:41

You didn't read what she said about a post on MN then @puffyisgood ?

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 19:42

Overwhelmingly the response on here was and is concerned mums that wanted Brianna's death to be properly investigated and justice served.

There's a stark contrast between the safeguarding first approach of most posters on here and political activists who want to appropriate Brianna's murder for their own political benefit, which is abhorrent.

I doubt the poster she saw was a regular poster and we have no way of knowing if it was a mother or not. I suspect not if they showed no empathy.

Unfortunately there are lots of people who post on here amid the safeguarding concerns and concerns for children purely for the screenshots and to try and smear women caring about children as bigoted.

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 19:43

It sounds like the mindfulness work Brianna's mum is doing will be really helpful to so many children. It is wonderful she is able to do this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 19:47

You didn't read what she said about a post on MN then @puffyisgood ?

The point is that we are free not to believe in gender identity ideology. I don't believe female pronouns are appropriate for any male at all, I am trying to be as respectful as I can here and avoid pronouns at all.

This takes away nothing from the horror of this cold blooded murder of a child by children. I don't need to share anyone else's gender identity beliefs to be horrified and saddened by it.

Abhannmor · 20/12/2023 19:47

Has any reason been suggested for why the list of intended victims was boys only?
Assuming it's even possible to fathom the logic of these killers.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 19:54

@Ereshkigalangcleg and @pronounsbundlebundle , I wasn't making a big point about it and trying to start an argument, just making people on this thread aware that her mum has stumbled on MN discussions about this which have upset her.

I'm sure none of us want to upset her, no matter what our opinions are on the trans issue.

Trevorton · 20/12/2023 19:55

Beowulfa · 20/12/2023 16:22

When I was these kids' age I was spending Saturdays helping out at stables, hanging out with my mates arguing about our favourite G N' R song, and still watched wholesome Saturday night telly with my family (like Gladiators and Blind Date). Occasionally we would neck some minging cider in the park, and once upended a bin and rolled it down the road. I have no frame of reference for the calculated hate and sadistic violence these murderers cheerfully texted about. Something has gone badly wrong.

Absolutely this

RollerGirl7 · 20/12/2023 19:57

Glad they got what they deserved and really feel for the family.

I have links to the school they attended, the general consensus is the girl had serious problems and had tried this with other kids so although there was some definite transphobic hate, it could have easily happened to anyone for any other little reason.

For me this sad situation really shows the dire state of child mental health issues in this country and that we're not set up to identify and deal with risk cases like the girl (and boy) involved.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 19:58

No, I certainly don't wish to upset her, but TRAs were and still are blaming gender critical feminist women for Brianna's murder. Of course debate is going to be heated and people are going to push back.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 20/12/2023 20:02

bellac11 · 20/12/2023 19:33

We barely here about most child on child murders, kids get stabbed all the time. The motive is usually, as in this case, that the perpetrator is a murderous thug and wants to harm someone in anger

This is true. Maybe it's because I live in London that this seems a lot less unusual to me than it seems to others. Sadly, teenagers die or are seriously injured in gang-related violence with horrifying frequency, and the perpetrators are very frequently their own age.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 20:03

@RollerGirl7 links to Birchwood or Culcheth?

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 20:44

Topofthemountain · 20/12/2023 16:08

One child dead, two children in prison for a considerable amount of time for murder and a massive ripple effect of people affected by the situation.

There'll be a serious case review, "lessons learnt" and then, little will actually change.

Brianna and her family have justice today at least.

Edited

It is exactly the serious case reviews of tragedies like this that lead to the safeguarding recommendations that Lord Cashman wanted to pushback against and others call ‘transphobic dog whistles’. It is these safeguards that they are looking to remove.

The perpetrators were dangerous fantasists caught up in a world of internet horror. They are also not the only teenagers who have set out to commit violence on another. Teachers keeping secrets, internet helplines directing children to unmoderated groups and estrangement from parents, calls to be ‘your whole self’ rather than recognising there must be limits and boundaries, RSE classes including harmful sexual practises, not recognising that some children can be easily led and coerced by so-called friends (including mate crime) are all safeguarding risks. But instead today we have teaching unions telling teachers to ignore safeguarding guidance and keep secrets so children can be their whole self (like X and Y?).

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2023 20:45

I have to say, we have no idea what the comment was that was upsetting.

It could have been transphobic.

It could have been saying that you can't change sex etc etc and this be deemed as transphobic.

We don't know really.

As sad as it sounds, there's two elements to this - a very distressed mother who would easily be upset and 'transphobia' effectively being a term that has such a broad span depending on whether you are an activist with a low threshold as to the definition or if you take the term on a much more restricted and dry legal definition.

So I'm not going to read any more into it than that - I certainly don't think that MN is the worst place on the internet. I do think she could have read any number of appalling comments on FB on accounts from Warrington.

She was upset and distressed. Thats understandable. Social media can be horrible for ANY public issue involving awful events. Those were the comments she saw.

I think targetting MN over and above anywhere on the basis of this isn't helpful and doesn't actually prove anything as much as some would like.

thirdfiddle · 20/12/2023 20:48

No, I certainly don't wish to upset her, but TRAs were and still are blaming gender critical feminist women for Brianna's murder. Of course debate is going to be heated and people are going to push back.

Agree, I'm afraid it is going to have to be discussed, and someone like IW deliberately naming big name not at all transphobic gender critical people at this time is precipitating it being discussed now. What sort of mind sees a tragic murder and jumps to now I can bash my political opponents and nobody will be able to argue back out of respect. It's horrible.

popebishop · 20/12/2023 20:56

There was a part of me that wondered whether one of them might have a "credible" defence that the jury would feel satisfied putting one of them away. Glad they were both found guilty. It's bloody awful.

The previous FWR thread on this was respectful and I believe nominated for deletion by regulars because a troll kept trying to link to sites speculating about the defendants' identities which could have causee issues for the legal case, then trying to derail by arguing about why they should be able to discuss unfounded speculation.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 20:57

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2023 20:45

I have to say, we have no idea what the comment was that was upsetting.

It could have been transphobic.

It could have been saying that you can't change sex etc etc and this be deemed as transphobic.

We don't know really.

As sad as it sounds, there's two elements to this - a very distressed mother who would easily be upset and 'transphobia' effectively being a term that has such a broad span depending on whether you are an activist with a low threshold as to the definition or if you take the term on a much more restricted and dry legal definition.

So I'm not going to read any more into it than that - I certainly don't think that MN is the worst place on the internet. I do think she could have read any number of appalling comments on FB on accounts from Warrington.

She was upset and distressed. Thats understandable. Social media can be horrible for ANY public issue involving awful events. Those were the comments she saw.

I think targetting MN over and above anywhere on the basis of this isn't helpful and doesn't actually prove anything as much as some would like.

Yet she mentioned MN, and not WG comments, Twitter or FB. That was what prompted me to post.