Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
28
SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 20:57

The mother is bound to be upset by anything which is not wholly eulogising her child. It is inevitable when she has suffered such a tragedy.

But that is not enough reason not to discuss all aspects of the case, the safeguarding implications, the route which led to this outcome, etc. There is a reason why the victim or bereaved does not set the sentence. Absolutely, their views must be heard and considered, but they must be weighed against all the facts.

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 20:58

thirdfiddle · 20/12/2023 20:48

No, I certainly don't wish to upset her, but TRAs were and still are blaming gender critical feminist women for Brianna's murder. Of course debate is going to be heated and people are going to push back.

Agree, I'm afraid it is going to have to be discussed, and someone like IW deliberately naming big name not at all transphobic gender critical people at this time is precipitating it being discussed now. What sort of mind sees a tragic murder and jumps to now I can bash my political opponents and nobody will be able to argue back out of respect. It's horrible.

Yes there was agenda pushing from a few TRAs

Mostly though posters were respectful but did argue against the take of IW and others

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:06

Yet she mentioned MN, and not WG comments, Twitter or FB.

Do you honestly think there wouldn't be equally or more upsetting things posted on those platforms? This isn't helping anyone.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:07

The previous FWR thread on this was respectful and I believe nominated for deletion by regulars because a troll kept trying to link to sites speculating about the defendants' identities which could have causee issues for the legal case, then trying to derail by arguing about why they should be able to discuss unfounded speculation.

I could see that starting to happen, then I didn't read for a couple of days and when I returned it had gone.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 21:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:06

Yet she mentioned MN, and not WG comments, Twitter or FB.

Do you honestly think there wouldn't be equally or more upsetting things posted on those platforms? This isn't helping anyone.

Yet she mentioned Mumsnet in particular.

I'm not passing comment on MN compared to other platforms at all. It was what she mentioned though.

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 21:11

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 21:08

Yet she mentioned Mumsnet in particular.

I'm not passing comment on MN compared to other platforms at all. It was what she mentioned though.

Why do you think she mentioned a site that TRAs have long targeted, rather than other sites where there has been similar or worse discussions?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:11

It's not really all that relevant, as the mother of a murdered child she is bound to find the discussion of most aspects upsetting, and certainly not without evidence of what it was that upset her, so I'm not sure why you're continuing to push it.

It's perpetuating misinformation about the many women on this site who care about women's rights and child safeguarding. I promise there is far more objectionable stuff on Twitter from all sides.

anyolddinosaur · 20/12/2023 21:17

Talking to someone else about this we were speculating about what has changed so much since we were teenagers. There is now more violence, especially more use of knives, than we ever heard about. There has been much talk of internet access but the other thing that has changed is drug use. Yes there were drugs around when we were teenagers but it didnt start at such a young age as it does now and was not as widespread, in part because not all teenagers had the money.

The verdict was pretty predictable, I dont see how anyone could listen to/ read about the planning of the murder and not want to see both children locked up.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 21:17

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 21:11

Why do you think she mentioned a site that TRAs have long targeted, rather than other sites where there has been similar or worse discussions?

Well I guess that she mentioned MN because that's where the post she found was on.

Are you suggesting that a bereaved mother gave a quote to a pathetic local newspaper in order to further a TRA objective against MN?

AYOG?

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 21:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:11

It's not really all that relevant, as the mother of a murdered child she is bound to find the discussion of most aspects upsetting, and certainly not without evidence of what it was that upset her, so I'm not sure why you're continuing to push it.

It's perpetuating misinformation about the many women on this site who care about women's rights and child safeguarding. I promise there is far more objectionable stuff on Twitter from all sides.

Yes to this. We talk about safeguarding a lot, other sites / platforms can be more brutal.

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 21:19

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 21:17

Well I guess that she mentioned MN because that's where the post she found was on.

Are you suggesting that a bereaved mother gave a quote to a pathetic local newspaper in order to further a TRA objective against MN?

AYOG?

Are you suggesting that a mother of a transgender child would not be aware of the TRAs view of MN as a “transphobic site”?

AYOG?

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2023 21:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:11

It's not really all that relevant, as the mother of a murdered child she is bound to find the discussion of most aspects upsetting, and certainly not without evidence of what it was that upset her, so I'm not sure why you're continuing to push it.

It's perpetuating misinformation about the many women on this site who care about women's rights and child safeguarding. I promise there is far more objectionable stuff on Twitter from all sides.

This.

Yes she mentioned MN.

It doesn't mean that MN is more problematic. Or more transphobic.
It just means she had been on MN. We don't know if she had been on other social media.
She was upset by MN. We don't know if she'd have been upset if she'd seen something elsewhere.

Its pretty much a non-point from an understandably emotional woman which posters are now trying to weaponise. Its awful, but it doesn't necessarily say more than she was upset by something she read.

Its effectively similar to an ancedote v a substantied piece of evidence: meaningless on an level beyond an individual recounting a story and their emotions, but not necessarily based in legal issues nor reflective of content on the internet.

People going on about it have an agenda they want to drive.

SoMuchSimpler · 20/12/2023 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:28

Its pretty much a non-point from an understandably emotional woman which posters are now trying to weaponise. Its awful, but it doesn't necessarily say more than she was upset by something she read.

YY.

bellac11 · 20/12/2023 21:28

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 20:44

It is exactly the serious case reviews of tragedies like this that lead to the safeguarding recommendations that Lord Cashman wanted to pushback against and others call ‘transphobic dog whistles’. It is these safeguards that they are looking to remove.

The perpetrators were dangerous fantasists caught up in a world of internet horror. They are also not the only teenagers who have set out to commit violence on another. Teachers keeping secrets, internet helplines directing children to unmoderated groups and estrangement from parents, calls to be ‘your whole self’ rather than recognising there must be limits and boundaries, RSE classes including harmful sexual practises, not recognising that some children can be easily led and coerced by so-called friends (including mate crime) are all safeguarding risks. But instead today we have teaching unions telling teachers to ignore safeguarding guidance and keep secrets so children can be their whole self (like X and Y?).

I cant emphasise this enough, that this whole concept of 'being true to your self', 'being your whole self/true self', counts just as much for little thugs or violent or warped people as much as wanting to be accepted and included or benign differences.

And this is the whole problem with it.

I dont think people with personality disorders or anti social traits or inappropriate views of the world should be 'true to themselves', they need to change to fit in with the rest of society safely and positively.

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 21:28

We should also remember that whilst a verdict has been given, we still await the sentencing hearing.

Beetlebumz · 20/12/2023 21:56

This reply has been deleted

We've had to remove this post as it contains a link to a fundraising page which we don't allow within our Guidelines.

PrawnLiberationFront · 20/12/2023 22:10

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 21:19

Are you suggesting that a mother of a transgender child would not be aware of the TRAs view of MN as a “transphobic site”?

AYOG?

Are you suggesting the mother of a murdered child isn't perfectly capable of deciding for herself based on what she reads here whether she thinks MN is a transphobic site or not? Why do you think "TRAs" must have told her what to think like she doesn't have a brain and eyes and opinions of her own?

As for those accusing "TRAs" of point scoring, there's plenty of that on both sides, if you're so convinced the victim being transgender had nothing to do with the crime, why is this discussion even taking place on the Sex and Gender board? There have clearly been posters here with an agenda to minimise the role of transphobia in the crime, including excusing the obviously transphobic comments made by the perpetrators, or trying to pretend that using transphobia to dehumanise their victim makes it less transphobic somehow. You have no high ground here.

Brewdug · 20/12/2023 22:14

anyolddinosaur · 20/12/2023 21:17

Talking to someone else about this we were speculating about what has changed so much since we were teenagers. There is now more violence, especially more use of knives, than we ever heard about. There has been much talk of internet access but the other thing that has changed is drug use. Yes there were drugs around when we were teenagers but it didnt start at such a young age as it does now and was not as widespread, in part because not all teenagers had the money.

The verdict was pretty predictable, I dont see how anyone could listen to/ read about the planning of the murder and not want to see both children locked up.

This stood out to me too. I wondered if it just my age to feel so shocked and saddened by it. Such normalisation of cocaine use, at 15. Not even in the context of partying; in the middle of a normal day, just to escape reality.

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 22:18

There have clearly been posters here with an agenda to minimise the role of transphobia in the crime

You mean posts directing to what the prosecution and judge said?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 22:25

As for those accusing "TRAs" of point scoring, there's plenty of that on both sides, if you're so convinced the victim being transgender had nothing to do with the crime, why is this discussion even taking place on the Sex and Gender board?

Because TRAs (trans rights activists) have made it about women who speak about women's rights from the outset, because they were point scoring against "terfs" even though this appears to be a senseless murder for thrills by a couple of disturbed teenage kids. That's why. There's even a disgusting and libellous accusation made by India Willoughby today against various prominent GC people.

You have no high ground either. If you don't like it being discussed, maybe you should lead by example.

puffyisgood · 20/12/2023 22:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 21:28

Its pretty much a non-point from an understandably emotional woman which posters are now trying to weaponise. Its awful, but it doesn't necessarily say more than she was upset by something she read.

YY.

The father's social media is public, all of a fortnight ago he posted a pic of Brianna in 'boy mode' and had relatives 'deadnaming' in their comments by way of condolence, so I think it's fair to say that the mother is probably comfortable with a range of views on this provided they're provided with respect and sympathy.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2023 23:16

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 22:18

There have clearly been posters here with an agenda to minimise the role of transphobia in the crime

You mean posts directing to what the prosecution and judge said?

And the police.

SpicyMoth · 20/12/2023 23:57

"excusing the obviously transphobic comments made by the perpetrators"

I've just read through this entire thread, I don't see anyone excusing anything?
On the contrary, the only thing I can see is posters stating, is how horrific this tragedy is and/or that transphobic comments do not mean the attack was BECAUSE of their trans status.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 05:28

Detective chief superintendent Mike Evans, Cheshire Police’s head of crime, was asked by members of the press why he thinks the pair targeted Brianna.

He said: “So Brianna, I would say from her lifestyle, her being an anxious child who stayed indoors a lot, was quite a vulnerable individual

“She was very withdrawn, and she had a small social circle.

“The fact of her lack of confidence and anxiety, and the fact this was the first time she had been out alone for a while, I think made her quite vulnerable.

“That, and her being quite trusting of the girl involved who befriended her, I think made her relatively easy in terms of accessibility.”

He went on to say: “We know girl X had a bit of an obsession with her. She says that herself with text messages. But I don't think this was any sort of almost hatred or ill feeling towards Brianna.

“There is a level of betrayal. We know from text messages to her mum that Brianna was nervous to be out of the house.

“She thought she was going to meet someone who she thought was a friend, who she trusted, and that makes it really quite sad.

“I think if it hadn't been Brianna, it would have been one of the other children on their list.

“It is just that Brianna was the one who was accessible at that time, and then became the focus of those desires so to speak.”

Ursula Doyle, deputy chief crown prosecutor for the CPS, added: “I think in terms of accessibility, the contact that that girl X had with Brianna allowed her effectively to lure Brianna, as part of the plan, to the park where the killing was carried out.

“There was obviously a list of a number of young people who could have been potential victims, but it fell into place in terms of Brianna, in effect.”

On if they hadn’t been caught, would there have been other victims, DCS Evans said: “It is really difficult to say.

“We have had those conversations. I have no idea is the honest answer.

“They did not seem to be bothered by what they had done, which maybe leads to that could have been, but God knows.”

As Brianna was identified as the person who had been killed, many were quick to point to her being transgender as the reason for the killing – despite not knowing any of the facts.

DCS Evans was also asked about this and commented: “Within 48 hours of the murder, we had no information or intelligence to suggest this was a hate crime.

“We never said it wasn't a hate crime, but from very early on, we had a 16-year-old girl with a significant number of injuries.

“Any senior investigating officer would then go through the thought process of what this could be.

“It could be sexually motivated, it could be this, it could be that. Hate element was one of these, but the truth is, the vast majority of people who are murdered are murdered by someone they know.”

He continued: “We had started to get the descriptions of the two individuals who had left as part of our media appeal.

“As those bits fell into place, there was nothing there that suggested Brianna was murdered because she was transgender.

“I accept now, looking at the text messages and on the sort of side of the boy, there is some horrific dehumanising and transphobic messages.

“But when you look at the girl involved, she almost admires or is obsessed with Brianna, so I still think to this day Brianna wasn't killed because she was transgender.

“Brianna was killed for the reasons we discussed earlier, and possibly the fact she was transgender made her that little bit more vulnerable and accessible.”

Neither Cheshire Police nor the CPS believe it was a hate crime.

They believe that being transgender made Briana have a co-morbid issue with anxiety and lack of social circle (you can argue chicken and egg on this point) and that's ultimately what made them vulnerable. They believe the transphobic comments are part of the dehumanising process, but transphobia was not the cause of it.

This is important to understand.

Why - because it maybe demonstrates that children who identify as transgender perhaps are in need of greater safeguarding than the average child. The social isolation, is making them vulnerable. Why are they socially isolated - perhaps because of transphobia but also perhaps because of other issues (the notable one is autism) which makes them seek approval and acceptance from peers where this might put them at added risk. They may not be reading social cues (and potential threats) correctly as a result. It might not be murder that's the consequence - it might be risk taking behaviour though and that encompasses a whole pile of scenarios.

And I do think there's an point here - if you socially transition at a young age, does it separate you from your peers further because it establishes and cements 'difference' and almost restricts the pool of people you identify with to a narrower group and those barriers which might have otherwise disappeared over time become fixed as you are more able to find a social group you fit into as you grow older rather than the forced environment of school relationships. Does it, in fact, make relationships harder in both the short and long term?

It's a hard one - but the nuance is important to understand because it has significant ramifications.

In some ways it makes it more worrying and disturbing than if it had been labelled as a hate crime.

Clearly unacceptable comments were made, but in this case, the issue of being transgender goes beyond simply being targeted because of that. Otherwise the police and CPS would have taken a completely different line over the case.

This might well be really hard for those dealing with Brianna's loss to process because it does raise questions about other things. If it was being just being trans it frames things neatly as Brianna being a victim in a way that's different.

But unfortunately that means we need to talk about it more not less because it's clearly much more complex. It muddies the water and instead of making it a simple poster child for trans rights cause, it opens up conversations which might be inconvenient for purists (namely ones about comorbidities with mental health - which activists are keen to keep away from).

The situation is not the gender critical argument in its purest form either I might add as there is transphobia in play. That can't be ignored either.

Unfortunately that's also why the case will be a battle ground too though - with people from both camps trying to almost win the argument.

But no one wins the argument until you acknowledge both points - it was not a hate crime but identifying as trans made someone particularly vulnerable and they may need additional safeguarding because of a difficulty with peer relationships and this identity which made them different was part of it - but any sort of difference would have been equally used. They weren't a 'special' kind of victim 'because trans', they were a victim because of more generalised and non specific non-conformity and social isolation.