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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/12/2023 05:50

Another excellent post, Red. Thank you.

Oldhampearshoproad · 21/12/2023 06:10

but identifying as trans made someone particularly vulnerable

No RedToothBrush the appalling behaviour of 2 murderous thugs made her vulnerable.

You know it’s not acceptable anymore to blame victims for wearing certain clothing? Would you say a woman wearing a short skirt made her vulnerable? Don’t victim blame please.

CountZacular · 21/12/2023 06:56

Oldhampearshoproad · 21/12/2023 06:10

but identifying as trans made someone particularly vulnerable

No RedToothBrush the appalling behaviour of 2 murderous thugs made her vulnerable.

You know it’s not acceptable anymore to blame victims for wearing certain clothing? Would you say a woman wearing a short skirt made her vulnerable? Don’t victim blame please.

Pointing out that an individual is vulnerable and will be at higher risk is not the same as victim blaming at all. It’s precisely why we are more vigilant with children and vulnerable adults.

It’s the same way single, lonely, elderly people are more likely to be the victim of scams. The are isolated, they don’t have a social group to step in and often that need for social interaction can mean red flags aren’t noticed. We don’t blame people for this - we acknowledge that the vulnerable nature of the victims is what made them easier targets.

Topofthemountain · 21/12/2023 07:38

Oldhampearshoproad · 21/12/2023 06:10

but identifying as trans made someone particularly vulnerable

No RedToothBrush the appalling behaviour of 2 murderous thugs made her vulnerable.

You know it’s not acceptable anymore to blame victims for wearing certain clothing? Would you say a woman wearing a short skirt made her vulnerable? Don’t victim blame please.

Acknowledging vulnerability is not victim shaming. It's almost as if some quarters don't want young people to have protections in place.

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 07:45

Topofthemountain · 21/12/2023 07:38

Acknowledging vulnerability is not victim shaming. It's almost as if some quarters don't want young people to have protections in place.

Show quote history

She wasn't (or shouldn't have been) vulnerable because she identified as trans. She was vulnerable because of her anxiety etc.

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 07:50

Most children who are transgender have a range of co morbid factors about them which make them extremely vulnerable, a high number are ASD, a high number have experienced trauma, a high number have been sexually abused. I am talking more about girls who say they want to be boys/non binary.

Its less common for boys to say they are girls but the factors are there first

No one is talking about this or addressing it, its dangerous to ignore this.

TheCadoganArms · 21/12/2023 08:05

Why was my IW post deleted?

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 08:08

Topofthemountain · 21/12/2023 07:38

Acknowledging vulnerability is not victim shaming. It's almost as if some quarters don't want young people to have protections in place.

Show quote history

Especially when it was the police involved in the case who said it.

EasternStandard · 21/12/2023 08:09

TheCadoganArms · 21/12/2023 08:05

Why was my IW post deleted?

I’d be interested to know. IW makes false statements attacking women and repetition on here is deleted

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/12/2023 08:14

Could it be to do with correctly naming IW's sex and using the related pronouns?

TheCadoganArms · 21/12/2023 08:19

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/12/2023 08:14

Could it be to do with correctly naming IW's sex and using the related pronouns?

MN can be weird, at times it feels like the Guardian Comment is Free moderating team have been giving the keys to this forum.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/12/2023 08:20

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 07:50

Most children who are transgender have a range of co morbid factors about them which make them extremely vulnerable, a high number are ASD, a high number have experienced trauma, a high number have been sexually abused. I am talking more about girls who say they want to be boys/non binary.

Its less common for boys to say they are girls but the factors are there first

No one is talking about this or addressing it, its dangerous to ignore this.

Yes, well said. The impression I have is that CAMHS and GIDS have both been utterly unable to function in recent years because of huge caseloads, staffing problems and inadequate budgets. So when troubled children are referred to CAMHS and it emerges that there is a gender-related element to their distress they get referred to GIDS and nothing much else is done. After an interminable wait they get to GIDS and until recently, anyway, their gender identity is immediately affirmed, a full evaluation of their health including mental health isn't done, and no other therapy is offered to help with the co-morbidities. No wonder in desperation some turn to Gndr GP and the like.

Topofthemountain · 21/12/2023 08:23

I think for some people in trying to make sense of something want to be able to package it up so it nicely fits into a box. This can be either to be able to blame 'them over there' or as a means of protection "it means it won't happen to me / a loved one"

The actual unpicking involves hard questions and even harder answers. We all do it to a lesser or greater extent, but we should be careful of just brushing things away rather than getting to a root cause.

TheCadoganArms · 21/12/2023 08:31

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/12/2023 08:20

Yes, well said. The impression I have is that CAMHS and GIDS have both been utterly unable to function in recent years because of huge caseloads, staffing problems and inadequate budgets. So when troubled children are referred to CAMHS and it emerges that there is a gender-related element to their distress they get referred to GIDS and nothing much else is done. After an interminable wait they get to GIDS and until recently, anyway, their gender identity is immediately affirmed, a full evaluation of their health including mental health isn't done, and no other therapy is offered to help with the co-morbidities. No wonder in desperation some turn to Gndr GP and the like.

Show quote history

Well this precisely what the interim Cass report highlighted.

quantumbutterfly · 21/12/2023 08:31

SaffronSpice · 20/12/2023 20:44

It is exactly the serious case reviews of tragedies like this that lead to the safeguarding recommendations that Lord Cashman wanted to pushback against and others call ‘transphobic dog whistles’. It is these safeguards that they are looking to remove.

The perpetrators were dangerous fantasists caught up in a world of internet horror. They are also not the only teenagers who have set out to commit violence on another. Teachers keeping secrets, internet helplines directing children to unmoderated groups and estrangement from parents, calls to be ‘your whole self’ rather than recognising there must be limits and boundaries, RSE classes including harmful sexual practises, not recognising that some children can be easily led and coerced by so-called friends (including mate crime) are all safeguarding risks. But instead today we have teaching unions telling teachers to ignore safeguarding guidance and keep secrets so children can be their whole self (like X and Y?).

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Indeed. We have the whole self mantra at work, introduced quite recently.
Fortunately my whole self is not an easily offended psychopathic killer or we'd have more staffing shortages than we do now.

LadySylviaMcCordle · 21/12/2023 08:35

One should only bring one's professional self to work.

SaffronSpice · 21/12/2023 08:40

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 08:08

Especially when it was the police involved in the case who said it.

Show quote history

‘Trans are the vulnerable-est people ever’ is a Stonewall mantra taught to everyone, including Stonewalled police, which is patently not true. However, it is used as an excuse to dismiss the needs of every other group in their favour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 08:43

MN can be weird, at times it feels like the Guardian Comment is Free moderating team have been giving the keys to this forum.

I think there are probably a lot of people reading this thread, so this leads to more stringent monitoring. We know that certain Twitter "personalities" read MN.

SinnerBoy · 21/12/2023 08:47

puffyisgood · Yesterday 17:29

doing so might expose their blameless parents, siblings, and so on to unwelcome, undeserved, attention. though the same is largely true of adult criminals who get named.

Yes, when I was in high school, (1980s) there were two brothers and a sister, whose father murdered somebody. They got so much abuse that they left the area.

Never underestimate the ability of people's stupidity and misplaced sense of vengeance for things which don't concern them.

...

I have a lot of admiration for Brianna's mother, who offered compassion to the families of the murderers. It must have been so difficult for her, at least their children are alive and not butchered horribly. I dread to think what she must be going through.

puffyisgood · 21/12/2023 09:14

SinnerBoy · 21/12/2023 08:47

puffyisgood · Yesterday 17:29

doing so might expose their blameless parents, siblings, and so on to unwelcome, undeserved, attention. though the same is largely true of adult criminals who get named.

Yes, when I was in high school, (1980s) there were two brothers and a sister, whose father murdered somebody. They got so much abuse that they left the area.

Never underestimate the ability of people's stupidity and misplaced sense of vengeance for things which don't concern them.

...

I have a lot of admiration for Brianna's mother, who offered compassion to the families of the murderers. It must have been so difficult for her, at least their children are alive and not butchered horribly. I dread to think what she must be going through.

I think I read online, and this may be a slight misremember on my part and/or the source may have been bad, that the names have been widely leaked on tiktok etc but in a way that's partly wrong, e.g. some leakers havemixed up the names of the boy and girl, mixed up the surnames, or similar.

SerafinasGoose · 21/12/2023 09:15

SinnerBoy · 21/12/2023 08:47

puffyisgood · Yesterday 17:29

doing so might expose their blameless parents, siblings, and so on to unwelcome, undeserved, attention. though the same is largely true of adult criminals who get named.

Yes, when I was in high school, (1980s) there were two brothers and a sister, whose father murdered somebody. They got so much abuse that they left the area.

Never underestimate the ability of people's stupidity and misplaced sense of vengeance for things which don't concern them.

...

I have a lot of admiration for Brianna's mother, who offered compassion to the families of the murderers. It must have been so difficult for her, at least their children are alive and not butchered horribly. I dread to think what she must be going through.

Something about Esther Ghey's dignity and compassion reminds me strongly of Sylvia Lancaster, the mother of Sophie, who set up campaigns in her daughter's name to help promote understanding and stamp out hate. Esther Ghey's appeal for restraint in relation to the perpetrators' families was very moving and admirable in the circumstances.

She's also clear about what her new focus is. It's about acknowledging the safeguarding failings which let down all three of the children in this tragic case. It's about addressing these failings with more mental health support for young people, for mindfulness to be introduced into the syllabus, and for teachers to receive more training in relation to this.

The only respectful stance for anyone to take in the wake of this senseless murder, and a trial the like of which I've never heard before and hope never to again, is to follow the lead of Brianna's bereaved mother. Her focus alone indicates that she doesn't want her child's death to be politicised. That decision should be respected.

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 09:15

SaffronSpice · 21/12/2023 08:40

‘Trans are the vulnerable-est people ever’ is a Stonewall mantra taught to everyone, including Stonewalled police, which is patently not true. However, it is used as an excuse to dismiss the needs of every other group in their favour.

Show quote history

You’re way off track.

RedToothBrush quoted the police who led the investigation saying Brianna had a number of vulnerabilities. Someone accused RedToothBrush of victim blaming because of this. It was pointed out that acknowledging victim vulnerability is not victim blaming and I backed that up by pointing out that it was specific to this particular case when described by the police in this particular case. My post has nothing to do with claims of trans vulnerability or police capture.

SerafinasGoose · 21/12/2023 09:22

As to the more incendiary issue of Brianna's transgender status, there is no evidence coming out of that trial which in any way suggests transphobia was the motive. That isn't to say the crime didn't have transphobic elements. Boy Y's language about Brianna was textbook transphobia. He also dehumanised the other kids they planned to kill in much the same way as Hollywood tends to sensationalise serial killers. The 'list' indicates that these two had the makings of this rare breed, and a couple of psychologists have been interviewed talking about this. Had they not been caught, the likelihood is they would have gone on killing. Boy Y called one would-be victim a nonce; Girl X simply added anyone to her shit list who happened to have slighted her in some way.

As to motive, the only real discernible one comes directly from Girl X's own testimony: 'because it's fun'. Brianna wasn't her first choice of victim but Girl X was a devious, meticulous planner, and going after this particular victim provided her with a convenient alibi. Brianna was vulnerabile: whether because of her trans stats or because the transition was prompted by the vulnerability. Whichever way round it was, it made the possibility of suicide more plausible, thereby avoiding implicating Girl X for murder. And this particular murderer had given a lot of thought to how she would cover her tracks. Had the Ibruprofen poisoning achieved its desired effect, there's a stronger possibility she would have got away with her murderous actions. That is a really chilling thought.

Oldhampearshoproad · 21/12/2023 09:24

Topofthemountain · 21/12/2023 07:38

Acknowledging vulnerability is not victim shaming. It's almost as if some quarters don't want young people to have protections in place.

Show quote history

Everyone should have protections in place. No one should be being murdered.