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MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/12/2023 16:54

The capacity of certain men to make Brianna's killing all about their world view knows no limits.
What responsible adults should be doing is reflecting on why children like this are accessing such dark materials online and why, despite their evident personal challenges, including mental health issues, there seemed to be nobody who could intervene.
Such a tragedy all round.

puffyisgood · 20/12/2023 16:55

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 20/12/2023 16:47

I'm amazed by Jolyon Maugham, KC - King's Counsel, i.e. a very senior barrister - tweeting about this during the trial in such a way that he was criticised by the judge. From The Guardian article linked above:

Mrs Justice Yip ... took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”. Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury. Maugham was spoken to by police and deleted the tweet, the court heard. Maugham told the Guardian: “Some weeks back I deleted several tweets about the trial. I also said to the judge I would – and I think it’s important to do this when you make a mistake – publicly apologise. I haven’t been able to do that until now, now the trial has ended. The issues I raised are very important but it was the wrong time for me to bring them up.”

Yes, this was poor. As per the article in today's gruaniad, X & Y had a shortlist of four other kids who they disliked, and even got as far as trying to tempt one of these boys into the same park where they killed Brianna. We weren't told what X & Y had to say about these other kids in any detail, but I very much doubt any it was complimentary. Given that murder was being actively contemplated , the language could very easily have been in its own way as hateful and dehumanising as the language applied to Brianna.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 20/12/2023 16:56

There was a thread on this before which I think may have been deleted. I said on that thread that while it's rare for young teenagers to murder, it's far from unknown. Mary Bell, ten years old, 1968. It's 30 years since the Jamie Bulger murder. I also know of a case a long time ago now where the local community was absolutely stunned by a case of a teenager from a really good, caring home committing a murder for which he ended up eventually in a high security psychiatric hospital. No warning signs at all.

Having said all of that, of course this is an awful case and unsupervised access to the internet and the Dark Web seems to have been a factor. Poor Brianna. RIP.

nothingcomestonothing · 20/12/2023 17:00

tattygrl · 20/12/2023 16:42

The transphobic comments exchanged by the killers are chilling. Questioning gender and ideology is always important, but we surely can't deny that saying "I want to see if it screams like a man or a girl" and "I just want to see what size dick it has" is transphobia. Hatred of Brianna because of her being transgender that led to her being dehumanised in the killers' eyes.

How low do you have to be, to use the murder of a child to push your ideology? The police chief and the judge both made it clear that Brianna was NOT killed for being trans. Not every fucking thing is about trans. This was a child, murdered by two other children, stop trying to use this awful murder to push your agenda.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 17:02

Hatred of Brianna because of her being transgender that led to her being dehumanised in the killers' eyes.

Having followed the case, they were quite capable of dehumanising anyone they didn't like.

GailBlancheViola · 20/12/2023 17:03

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 16:36

I'm so sorry your story ended here, Brianna. I'm so sorry that these two stole it from you to satisfy their twisted curiosity and their need to see you suffer.

Girl X is on record saying she was creepily obsessed with Brianna and jealous of her. Boy Y said he was 'joking' when he talked about her in such a dehumanising way and said he learned it from other people. What environment was he exposed to where that kind of 'joke' is normalised?

Do you post this about every teenager who has been stabbed to death by other teenagers?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 17:03

There was a thread on this before which I think may have been deleted.

It was, it went a few days ago. Maybe too much speculation going on while trial was ongoing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 17:04

We weren't told what X & Y had to say about these other kids in any detail, but I very much doubt any it was complimentary. Given that murder was being actively contemplated , the language could very easily have been in its own way as hateful and dehumanising as the language applied to Brianna.

They did bring some of it up in court. It was.

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 17:06

That’s good. I haven’t followed closely but what I’ve read on here was highly disturbing

Original poster
RoyalCorgi · 20/12/2023 17:19

Jolyon Maugham's intervention was shocking. He must have come very close to being struck off.

I'm sure we all agree this was the right verdict. It will be interesting to see if they now name the children, as they did in the Bulger case.

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 20/12/2023 17:23

It's not the first time Jolyon had shown a lack of judgement or self awareness. I wasn't surprised by his tweet

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 17:23

I think it will be very difficult to keep them secret.

GailBlancheViola · 20/12/2023 17:28

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

IsadoraQuagmire · 20/12/2023 17:29

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Soubriquet · 20/12/2023 17:29

It’s brutal how some kids act towards each other. I’m glad justice was served

puffyisgood · 20/12/2023 17:29

the two kids were being named all over social media months ago.

I'm not sure whether they they should be named now or not.

doing so might expose their blameless parents, siblings, and so on to unwelcome, undeserved, attention. though the same is largely true of adult criminals who get named.

Rainbowshit · 20/12/2023 17:31

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Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 17:32

I do think we need to ask hard questions such as whether these children would have done this had they not had the internet access they had. We'll maybe never know but we need to ask these questions.

It's really important. At Molly Russell's inquest the coroner ruling was "“Molly Rose Russell died from an act of self-harm whilst suffering from depression and the negative effects of on-line content” i.e. a direct causal link was established in law. And still children aren't protected.

Given how many third factor authentication processes I have to go through as an adult online, it's clearly not actually impossible to stop children accessing this stuff - what is lacking is public pressure and political will and the lobbying might of those who make money out of misery wins the day.

I hope that more safeguards will be put in place to pick up and stop children accessing this sort of content and having the kinds of dehumanising conversations they were having about other children without anyone noticing.

We owe it to Brianna to ask if anything could have prevented this.

3milyJ · 20/12/2023 17:32

Such a horrifying case. I don't really care what the courts and the police have to say about motive, I'm not bound by that, when I see someone write "I want to see if it screams like a man or a girl" I know what's going on there.

I was very moved by the love and pride her Dad expressed in her outside the court.

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 17:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

Me too

nothingcomestonothing · 20/12/2023 17:38

3milyJ · 20/12/2023 17:32

Such a horrifying case. I don't really care what the courts and the police have to say about motive, I'm not bound by that, when I see someone write "I want to see if it screams like a man or a girl" I know what's going on there.

I was very moved by the love and pride her Dad expressed in her outside the court.

You deciding that you know better than the judge and the person in charge of the investigation, who have had to hear, see and comprehend the evidence, makes my point for me

Not everything is about trans. The people who have been party to the full evidence of this case, say it isn't about trans. Yet you think you ' know what's going on there' better than they do. Stop using the murder of a child for your own ends, it's despicable.

Abhannmor · 20/12/2023 17:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mollyollydolly · 20/12/2023 17:47

My heart goes out to Brianna's family. Thank God cases like this (reminded me so much of Jamie Bulger) are vanishingly rare. Most people are basically decent, we need to remind ourselves of that when we read the details of Brianna's death.

Brewdug · 20/12/2023 17:50

Quite what I have been wanting to articulate, Nothing.

Look at that Guardian piece. Police saying it wasn't a transphobic crime "caused uproar" in a community that "suspected" it must have been and were "angry" the police discounted it so quickly.

Everyone's an expert in criminology now, are they? Why would the Graun frame it so? The old 'feelings trump facts' emotional blackmail shouldn't be given the time of day here, never mind be the lede in a national newspaper's analysis.

Peasandsweetcorns · 20/12/2023 18:05

nothingcomestonothing · 20/12/2023 17:38

You deciding that you know better than the judge and the person in charge of the investigation, who have had to hear, see and comprehend the evidence, makes my point for me

Not everything is about trans. The people who have been party to the full evidence of this case, say it isn't about trans. Yet you think you ' know what's going on there' better than they do. Stop using the murder of a child for your own ends, it's despicable.

Show quote history

Sentencing hasn’t taken place yet, and isn’t happening this week. So, we will have to wait to hear whether or not the judge considers transphobia to be a factor which needs to be taken into account in sentencing.