Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Children are being brought up to espouse martyrdom, and to hate jews:

https://www.memri.org/tv/children-lebanon-baddawi-refugee-camp-protest-palestine-gaza-martyrs-paradise

"Our children are dear to us but Palestine and Islam are more important":

https://www.memri.org/tv/young-brother-nephew-father-gaza-militant-baraa-al-zard-pledge-fight-martyrdom-liberate-palestine

I’m another one who had never realised the depth and breadth of anti semitism in this country until now and who is reaching out in solidarity. Lighting a candle today and holding in my thoughts the female hostages and survivors.

Girl: "I am very happy to be near the weapons that will annihilate Israel, weapons that have been killing many of them, day and night. Despite the siege, we managed to obtain weapons. Their end is coming, inshallah."
https://www.memri.org/tv/children-visit-hamas-weapons-expo-gaza-photos-weapons-fighters-suhail-hindi-enemy

I think Golda Meir was right when she said this. It is not that Palestinians don't love their children; of course they do, as much as anyone else, but their hatred for Israel and for Jews seems far stronger a motivating force - for which they see sacrifice as worthwhile. The idea that all muslims must be martyrs; that matyrdom is their duty.How can there ever be peace or a lasting truce when this is what fuels the 'resistance' ( the fundamental rejection of Israel's existence)?

Answers on a postcard.

What I said may be somewhat hyperbolic but only to the same degree that your statement ‘Israel can deal with its own extremists. It has done so before’ could be said to be too optimistic, given the hold the present government has had and how it has been trying to set up the undermining of democracy through the judiciary.

I was especially thinking of Smotrich and Givr as well as Netanyahu.

“Newspaper Haaretz described Ben-Gvir as the legal ‘go-to man’ for Jewish extremists, and said his client list ‘reads like a “Who’s Who” of suspects in Jewish terror cases and hate crimes’. Ben-Gvir has also represented several members, including the CEO, of the far-right Israeli anti-assimilation organization Lehava, which opposes intermarriage with non-Jews”
https://newint.org/features/2023/06/05/hall-infamy-itamar-ben-gvir

The Times of Israel July 2023
Smotrich

In response, Religious Zionism party head and adamant settlement advocate Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, said it is Biden’s “right to express criticism,” and it is “our right and our duty to continue to act to fulfill the mission of the citizens of Israel, to defend ourselves and build our homeland.”
The United States “wants two states for two peoples and we think it’s suicide,” continued Smotrich, who also holds a ministerial post in the Defense Ministry that grants him extensive authority over settlement construction.

Givr
National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, who joins Smotrich as one of the White House’s personae non gratae, said that “the USA is our wonderful friend and we love it, but I say to President Biden: The Land of Israel is for the people of Israel, according to the Torah of Israel.”
“We will not compromise on the Land of Israel. We will not compromise on any step. We will not compromise on any hill, on any outpost. This is ours,” the Otzma Yehudit party chief said, referring to the greater, biblical territory that encompasses the West Bank.

RebelliousCow · Today 08:34

What is it you don't understand about the nature of war? Countries at war have aduty not to target civilians - but that is not what Israel is doing.

Numerous reports on the subject say that the vast disparity in civilian deaths shows that Israel IS targetting civilians. Israeli spokespeople have said that they are going for maximum damage, not precision. The Guardian article I linked to yesterday had exactly that. Some Israeli military and Government personnel have said explicitly that they want to kill many, many civilians, in order to deter the Gazans from trying to attack Israel again.

They are deliberately targetting housing, with over 60% destroyed so far, not to mention power plants, water and sanitation; water and sanitation plants are supposedly protected under the laws of war.

Thank you, Rebellious.

These Hamas men’s very own words - about not being responsible for protecting their own, and about needing the blood of their own defenceless people to help them get a fighting spirit - show them imo to be more or less insane imo.

What can one say? If they ceased to be around it might help.

But perhaps others in line are waiting to take their place.

I fear though that Israel may be in danger of almost giving them what they want and seeding a field for a crop of more of them. (This is easy to say though as I don’t know what the answer should be in this moment.)

The thing is Israel can be responsible about where it bombs but if Hamas are using infrastructure to hide and launch weapons from then it's going to be destroyed legitimately.

The removal of a terrorist organisation with a high level of support in the general population that uses that population is going to be impossible without casualties.

Why is the government (hamas) not protecting its people or at least trying not to put them in the firing line? Israel has the iron dome etc but I have family there and the rockets coming over from Gaza are plentiful. They are not so repressed that they aren't still looking to kill and maim those in israel.

@SinnerBoy Gaza has one power plant.
Here is a thought though.... if I knew I relied heavily on my neighbour to supply me with things like electricity or water would I cross over the border to rape and murder when I know what the response will be? And they aren't a band of mercenaries but the armed wing of their elected government who are collectively responsible for their own people.

I just put this on another thread but will do so again here as a reminder of the imbalance of power when speaking of the threats of Israel over Palestinians.

These show the number of deaths related to each going back to before the present.

As for now, isn’t it going on for 16000 Palestinians ( hundreds of others still buried under rubble) of whom about 5000 are Hamas terrorist fighters? That’s without those killed since Oct 7 in the West Bank. That’s to about 1,300 Israelis.

Also, while an IDF soldier can simply shoot or arrest anyone they like in the West Bank, no Palestinian authority can do likewise in Tel Aviv. Imagine what that feels like if you are Palestinian? Or being shot at when you pick your olives?

Israelis are also killed whilst going about their lives in Israel. These are the civilian deaths for 2023 - including the October 7th massacre. This has been going on for decades: suicide attacks; bombs; rocket launches; snipers; stoning.

Every single day since 2005 Hamas has been firing barrages of rockets into Israel - killing people, damaging infrastructure and causing daily terror. Frequently these rocket launches fail and land in Gaza killing people, including children, as well as damaging the infrastructure used to actually supply Gaza with electricity.

This is why Israelis have safe rooms and shelters in their homes. Can you imagine every single day sirens going off and you having to throw yourself to the floor whilst at home, or at work?

November 30 Liviya Dickman (24), Hanna Ifergan (67), Elimelech Wasserman (73) Shot by terrorists while standing at a Jerusalem bus stop. Six others were wounded.
November 5 Unnamed Killed by an anti-tank missile fired from Lebanon.
November 2 Elhanan Klein (29) Klein was found shot in his car.
October 7 More than 1,000 More than 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed in a massacre perpetrated by Hamas. There are too many names to list here. Some bodies were so severely burned or dismembered that they could not be identified.
August 21 Batsheva Nagari (40) Nagari was killed when a terrorist in a passing car shot at her car while she was driving on the highway.
August 19 Aviad Nir (28), Silas (Shai) Nigreker (60) Aviad and his father Silas were shot and killed at a car wash in the Palestinian town of Huwara.
August 5 Chen Amir (42)
A gunman from Jenin, West Bank, shot and killed an Israeli security guard.
June 20 Ofer Fayerman (64), Harel Masood (21), Elisha Anteman (17), and Shmuel Mordoff (17) Palestinian gunmen affiliated with Hamas opened fire at a gas station in the West Bank, killing four Israelis and wounding four others.
May 30 Meir Tamari (32) He was shot while driving on a road near his home in the West Bank community of Hermesh.
May 11 Inga Avramyan (80) Killed when a rocket fired from Gaza by PIJ scored a direct hit on an apartment in Rehovot.
April 7 Lucy Dee (48), Maia Dee (20), Rina Dee (15), Alessandro Parini, (35) Lucy Dee and her two daughters were killed in a shooting attack in the Gilboa region. Parini was killed when a terrorist rammed a car into people walking on the promenade at the beach in Tel Aviv.
March 9 Or Eshkar (32) Or Eshkar died on March 20 after he was seriously wounded by a Palestinian gunman in Tel Aviv.
February 27 Elan Ganeles (27) Elan Ganeles was shot dead by a Palestinian terrorist on a highway between Jericho and the Dead Sea.
February 26 Hallel Yaniv (21) Yagel Yaniv (19) Hallel Yaniv and Yagel Yaniv, two brothers from Har Bracha, were murdered when a Palestinian gunman opened fire from close range at their car while it was caught in a traffic jam on the Route 60 highway near Huwara.
February 11 Asher Menahem Paley (8) Paley succumbed to wounds sustained in a car-ramming attack in Ramot.
February 10 Shlomo Liderman (20), Yaakov Yisrael Paley (6), Asher Menahem Paley (8) A Palestinian rammed his car into civilians at a Jerusalem bus stop, immediately killing a 6-year-old boy and a 20-year-old man. The boy’s 8-year-old brother died later from his injuries.
January 27 Eli (48) and Natalie Mizrahi (45), Rafael Ben-Eliyahu (56), Asher Natan (14), Shaul Chai(68), Irina Korolova (59), Ilya Sosonsky (26), At the conclusion of Friday night prayers, a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on a crowd in Jerusalem’s Neve Yaakov neighborhood, killing seven and wounding three.

I shall light one too ❤️

Another non-Jew who was astounded at the response to 7 Oct.

And Palestinians in the West Bank about 250 killed just since Oct 7 including over 62 children. (3000 arrested)

Since Oct 7 in Gaza 16,000 Palestinians killed (IDF said 5000 Hamas terrorists killed so that would account for 1/3 of them) Others yet to be found under rubble.

1200 Israelis killed by Hamas terrorist incursion Oct 7 ( Hostages taken approximately 240)

Relative deaths Israeli/Palestinian in years before in screen shot posted again.

I agree it would be a horrible thing to always feel vulnerable, but I think this is true whether you are Palestinian or Israeli.

The terrible arithmetic.

'UK Defence Secretary Grant Shapps has said more aid needs to reach Gaza.
He said: "It seems to me that what the world needs to do is get a lot more aid to people who are, in many cases, innocent in this."
Shapps is in the West Bank to offer UK supplies via a sea route into Gaza, although he agreed that, at this stage, they are studying options for routes in.
In response to the UN secretary general’s call for a ceasefire, he said that the problem is that Israel would still end up living next door to an organisation that wants to murder all Jewish and Israeli citizens in the world.
The best thing, he said, would be for all the hostages to be released.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67633071

https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel/sg-sc-article99-06-dec-2023

'More than 1,200 people were brutally killed, including 33 children, and thousands were injured in the abhorrent acts of terror by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups on 7 October 2023, which I have repeatedly condemned.
Some 250 people were abducted, including 34 children, more than 130 of whom are still captive. They must be immediately and unconditionally released. Accounts of sexual violence during the attacks are appalling.'

Statement from Guterres. I've highlighted the part relevant to the thread.

Hamas need to release the hostages.

stomachameleon · Today 11:05

if I knew I relied heavily on my neighbour to supply me with things like electricity or water would I cross over the border to rape and murder when I know what the response will be? And they aren't a band of mercenaries but the armed wing of their elected government who are collectively responsible for their own people.

That's facile, Hamas were elected many years ago, but took control by force, when it seemed that they would be ousted. They murdered the opposition and are a violent dictatorship. Aside from that, about half of the Gazans weren't even alive, leaving aside women, who aren't permitted to vote.

On the water front, when Russia cut off water in Ukraine, everyone agreed that it was a war crime. Preventing food and water during a siege is the war crime of starvation.

Skin diseases and enteric diseases have increased dramatically, as people can't wash, or find clean water. If cholera breaks out, it'll be even more tragic than it already is.

I agree entirely that Israel has a right and a duty to respond, but it must be done lawfully and proportionately. There are reports that they have begun to flood the tunnels, which will either drown the swines, or drive them out to be shot. Why do they still feel justified in destroying housing and critical infrastructure?

Joan Smith has written about it again in Unherd, there's a link to her original article

https://unherd.com/thepost/why-are-people-still-denying-hamass-rape/

Hamas have to release the hostages and lay down their arms. Israel will not stop until they do. Israel's response was entirely predictable, hamas knew this but did it anyway.

The problem with all those toothless resolutions condemning Israel is after they've ignored one, with no or negligible repercussions, the rest are just noise. Hamas knew this too but did it anyway.

Israel are at least offering a public semblance of concern regarding minimising civilian casualties in Gaza. If hama cared they'd release the hostages and lay down their arms.

If you are interested the IDF has a twitter account which provides daily updates and images of what ( and why) they have been doing. Hamas has weapons stores in school and mosques, for example, and also uses schools for sniping.
Khan Yunis is a Hamas stronghold.

@ArthurbellaScott yes they do. Release the hostages.

IcakethereforeIam · Today 13:58

Hamas have to release the hostages and lay down their arms. Israel will not stop until they do. Israel's response was entirely predictable, hamas knew this but did it anyway.

I've thought from the very beginning that they did it in order to provoke such a brutal response that people in the wider world would start to turn against Israel.

RebelliousCow · Today 14:04

^If you are interested the IDF has a twitter account which provides daily updates and images of what ( and why) they have been doing. Hamas has weapons stores in school and mosques, for example, and also uses schools for sniping.
Khan Yunis is a Hamas stronghold.^

I'm not really interested in the IDF account, I'm sure they have found things and that Hamas use protected civilian places as firing and staging posts. We all know that Hamas are unconscionable shits.

I'm more interested in why Israel is committing large scale war crimes and crimes against humanity, at the moment. Do they want to kill all the Hamas fighters? Fine by me.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/07/widespread-destruction-in-gaza-puts-concept-of-domicide-in-focus

The destruction of more than a third of Gaza’s homes as Israel bombards the territory in pursuit of Hamas is leading international legal experts to raise the concept of “domicide” – the mass destruction of dwellings to make the territory uninhabitable.

This is a major reason that Israel consistently agitates against the rest of the world recognising Palestine as a state:

“This is relevant to the mass destruction of housing in the case of the Israel-Palestinian conflict in Gaza,” Rajagopal said. “Israel will say the conflict is not an international armed conflict because Israel does not recognise Palestine as a state.”

He said a similar gap in relation to starvation had just been filled. The Rome statute had listed starvation as a war crime but not a crime against humanity, so exempting non-state actors. Switzerland pressed to amend the statute to make starvation a crime against humanity, a change finally implemented in 2022.

Leaks from inside the Israeli government, including the intelligence ministry, show officials have been examining ways to force Palestinians to leave Gaza, either voluntarily or forcibly. The intelligence ministry is not a high-status body in the government, but US conservatives such as John Bolton, the former national security adviser, have canvassed variations of such plans.

Giora Eiland, a former head of the Israeli national security council, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth, an Israeli newspaper: “The state of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in. Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal … Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

It seems it's a game of poker with dead Gazans as the chips. Who will blink first, Israel or hamas. Or will someone else step up and tip the table over?

At the risk of labouring the point. Hamas started this, they can stop it (whatever Israel might want) by releasing the hostages and laying down their arms.

That's why I suggested you look at their feed. You asked why housing had been targeted. Did you really mean for it to be a rhetorical question?

You are most likely hitting a nail on the head there.
It is barbaric and heartbreaking

It's all heartbreaking, and it's unconscionable what's happening in Palestine, but the initial aggressors and the ones committing inhuman atrocities and the ones who bear responsibility for the war seem very clearly to me to be Hamas.