Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

@NovemberAutumn Gosh I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, but glad your local community are providing comfort.

For what it's worth, this has opened my eyes to anti semitism when I had not previously been fully aware; it will have done the same for many others.

I'm really praying your view is more common than seems the case just now @ArthurbellaScott It just feels like we're viewed as sinister pariahs just because we're Jewish and I'm scared it's going to get worse.

(Also sorry for derailing)!

It seems to be an example of the horseshoe theory- far left meeting with far right. Destination: denial of Hamas atrocities and a demonisation and dehumanisation of Jews.

I honestly think it is. I'm like Arthurbella and never realised how deep antisemitism ran in the west. But the antisemites are so aggressive and hate filled, unfortunately it puts people like myself (self confessed coward) to not want to go head to head with them IRL. But I will never forget this or the hatred that has been unleashed on the streets of the UK. The majority are on your side.

This is slightly disingenuous though because Yitzak Rabin was moving towards a two state solution when he was assassinated by an Israeli because of his support, and Netanyahu has always been anti a two state solution and historically urged supporting Hamas to stop a two state solution being put in place, not to mention driving forward with settlements on what would be a Palestinian state.

I cannot see how this can progress unless both sides are honest about what they need. I don't think there is any appetite in the Israeli government for a two state solution.

To be honest, i would have thought the best solution at this point is a one state solution (like NI) but can see that's impossible if Hamas are involved.

Coming back on the thread to send love to my Jewish sisters. It has been the worst time I have ever experienced in terms of the acute and persistent buzz of antisemitism. (And I had already experienced some shocking moments over the last 7 years!!)

What has helped in small ways has been - the many people who sent me messages after 7 Oct; being around other Jews when I can; and going to the Together for Humanity vigil the other day. I hugged someone else who lost family and we spoke of the need for peace.

This thread makes me feel better too - full of people discussing an extremely heated and tragic situation... and centring women. It is a big relief too to have non-Jews express that they can see antisemitism where they didn't pick it up before.

Brendan O'Neill in Spiked on the three amigos upthread.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/12/06/why-ivy-league-universities-are-so-blase-about-genocide/

He takes a different approach, giving them the benefit of the doubt re. freesheet. But also pointing out their rank hypocrisy. Their mealy mouthed platitudes and stupid lines drawn to allow little edge lords to get away with vile bigotry. However, if someone should call a man, a man...they'll be hounded off campus and the victim will be hustled to a safespace faster than you can say 'double standard'.

*Autocorrupt wanted to call him 'Brenda'! Thankfully I noticed otherwise I think he wouldn't have given a toss.

@deepbluebell It is a big relief too to have non-Jews express that they can see antisemitism where they didn't pick it up before.

Yes, it means everything just now, truly.

@Totallymessed I hope you're right, thank you.

For what it's worth, this has opened my eyes to anti semitism when I had not previously been fully aware; it will have done the same for many others

This is exactly what it has happened with me. It’s absolutely opened my eyes. I’ve joined the Campaign for Anti-semitism and have their Hanukkah posters on my front windows to state support the Jewish Community.

That's exactly my point. People say it's legitimate for Israel to eradicate hamas (I actually agree, it is legitimate). Then say the Israelis are protecting civilians, they don't want to kill Palestinians. Then say there is no way to distinguish Hamas from a Palestinian?

So (genuinely, not goadily) how on earth would the Israeli government achieve their objective without killing all Palestinians?

It makes no sense, I'm just following the logical train of thought.

Sending love back ♥️ been following this thread closely, and appreciate all the sensible, measured voices on here

Look, the Israeli government is trying to take out all of the Hamas infrastructure and resources and as many of the personnel as they can. They are attacking these in Gaza. Which is where all of this is. They won’t kill every Hamas fighter, of course they won’t. They will hope to deliver a blow so devastating that Hamas won’t be able to recover.

But what you have argued is that Israel should open its borders and let Palestinians in. Which is literally providing a passage for Hamas into Israel. After an appalling and deliberately barbaric atrocity after Hamas got into Israel. You can surely see no country would do this. You can surely see how terrifying that would be for the traumatized population of Israel..

Your case relies are compounding these two very separate situations and claiming they are the same. They are not.

No. I think they could potentially expand the borders to set up refugee camps away from the fighting and tunnels.

Speaking personally, this would mean alot to me. ❤

Thank you to everyone who has expressed their care and concern. ❤

There feels like there is more intolerance in general over the last few years. It feels like igots and racists have been emboldened, not helped by a lurch to the right in mainstream politics.

I'm so sorry that the Jewish community have to go through this. Like @Totallymessed it is hard to go head to head with antisemites IRL and I have noticed that most people at work, friends, family etc haven't mentioned the conflict at all, I think because it's hard to know what to say. I hope that the majority in the UK do share the view that what happened on 7 October was an actrocity.

You might find it interesting to read about the border and why it is so heavily guarded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Israel_barrier

I too want to thank everyone here for their support. It means a lot.
This explains why 90% of Jews are Zionists...

I don't want Israel to be involved at all with Gaza or the Left Bank. Once Hamas is gone. Let Israel sign the coming peace treaty with the Saudis and UAE and let them, Muslims, administer the Palestinian territories and monies to bring up the youth to love peace, education, entrepreneurship.

It is not disingenuous at all.

For many decades the Palestinian leadership has rejected a two state solution. As a result there has beeen continued acrimony and increasing radicalisation; suicide bombings by Palestinian extremists killing many hundreds of Israelis including children; hundreds of rockets fired on a daily basis into Israel with the purpose of terrorising the population; and conflict and repression on the West Bank; now with radicalised Israeli settlers venting their rage.

A one state solution is not really a realistic proposal. Israel was founded with purpose of having a Jewish focus fro a long persecuted Jewish people. Israel is the product of vision, hard work and commitment and encodes western type liberal values whilst accommodating religious Jews.

Those who identify as Palestinian need their own state - one which would reflect their values and culture - just as much as the Jewish state reflects theirs.

Not on Israeli soil. The kibbutz which were attacked lie in this zone. This would simply not be acceptable or even reasonable to ask of a nation involved in a war.

I believe Netanyahu will not last much longer in Israel, which is good - the rightward march has been in response to intransigence on the side of Hamas and the other enemies of Israel. Hopefully a new unity government can take the country forward. What the Palestinians decide to do is up to them.

The peace treaty with Israel was also one of the primary factors that led to Anwar Sadat 's assassination; on 6 October 1981, militants led by The peace treaty with Israel was also one of the primary factors that led to Anwar Sadat 's assassination; on 6 October 1981, militants led by Khalid Islambouli opened fire on Sadat with automatic rifles during the 6 October parade in Cairo, killing him. This is after he and Begin won the Nobel Peace Prize.

A two state solution is obviously the best solution.However who would negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians. They have saddled themselves with a bunch of fanatical thugs who can't be trusted. The current people in charge are incapable of nation building, they can only destroy.
It's time the Arab world and the UN started dealing head on with the terrorists and demanded Israel is recognised and a path for negotiations created. Aid and support from the world community would be dependent on this.

I don't think you grasp how traumatised Israelis (and the wider Jewish community) are at the moment. This is the last thing they're going to want to do, after 'ordinary Gazans ' followed Hamas through the border fence to loot and destroy.

I spoke with a Jewish friend the other weekend. He was resigned to the resurgence of antisemitism, said it was shocking but... And shrugged.

It's just so bloody sad.

@EdithStourton exactly. I have just seen footage of my families house in a kibbutz with rockets flying overhead and sirens going off.
I am not sure they would be keen.

No. I think they could potentially expand the borders to set up refugee camps away from the fighting and tunnels.

I'm sorry but the only way someone can suggest this is if they're completely unable to exhibit empathy to Israelis AND normal Palestinians, neither of whom want this. It would be further trauma to both and that's BEFORE any of the disasters that could happen with such an approach were to take place. It's an obvious disaster in the making and would never be taken seriously as a suggestion by either side.

The only person who could possibly want this is someone who is more interested in occupancy of land than people.

Sorry what? You think the Palestinians and Israelis would rather have a situation with no safe zones for citizens and high "collateral damage" and suggesting otherwise lacks empathy? Why?

This is unfair.
Do you not think the Gazans are also now traumatised? I understand Jews are traumatised, but the Israeli Government have an obligation not to kill civilians and no amount of trauma makes that untrue