Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

At a guess, because the Egyptians aren't Jewish? Next to no Jews in Egypt these days. They were hounded out decades ago.

And made new lives either in Israel or elsewhere.

@ArthurbellaScott Yeah it's pretty decent actually. Factual and concise summaries and I like the way it's organised and easy to navigate. The index is pretty helpful too.

Video from 2016, an Egyptian academic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suad_Salih

Thanks @ArthurbellaScott that website looks excellent - will need to read later. Really appreciate your work in bringing a number of useful sources to us MNetters!

I’d like to thank the posters who have shared their knowledge and experience here. I’m one of the ‘clueless westerners’, and have been very wary of taking any kind of side.

My blood has chilled and boiled in turns at the suffering of civilians- DeepBluebell stopped me becoming somewhat hardline earlier in this thread!

I have found your posts, @BabaBarrio , to be unhelpful in my quest to stay balanced- your posts read as being full of whataboutery and in no way unbiased.
You push me away from your side. Your posts do not read as attempts to keep the thread accurate and free of misinformation, they read as propaganda.

People here were trying to focus on the suffering of Israeli women and children, not get into a game of ‘gotcha’. You are disrespectfully derailing the thread.

I'm very much a clueless Westerner. I'm doing my best to find sources that are as credible as possible, but it's important to remain aware that no sources are totally impartial and remaining impartial is very hard for anyone involved. There are massive amounts of disinformation and distorted information floating about. The first casualty of war, etc.

All anyone can do is try and maintain a critical approach: Keep asking questions, checking sources, looking for counter arguments. And among all the complex histories and implications, try to maintain an awareness of one's own human tendency to tribalism, desire for certainty, etc.

And also keep a sense of humanity, always, always. Nobody sane wants anyone else to suffer. Everyone sane wants peace.

Are you claiming that the IDF physically controls the crossing or that Israel forces Egypt to do it's bidding by threatening military action?

And yes, when you're debating the precise method of baby murder (regardless of 'side') as if somehow it's justifiable if it's one method rather than another then you've definitely taken a moral wrong turn somewhere.

I think we need to discuss this more. I really do.

I don't think the two different ways that babies died at the hands of Hamas vs at the hands of the IDF are morally equivalent at all. I think it's a disgrace that anyone claims that they are and I definitely think this needs to be discussed more.

If French militant sent by the government invaded England and went and raped babies, intentionally to make the British more horrified, tied them to their mothers and set them both alight, put live babies in ovens and cooked them, then the British decided to invade France to overthrow the government and dropped bombs on hospitals that they'd got intel was intentionally hiding French soldiers, and this killed babies, I don't think these two ways of babies dying are morally equivalent.

Does anyone??

Supporters of Hamas are attempting to use the Nazi 'Dresdon defence' used at Nuremburg. Didn't work then.

https://martinkramer.org/2023/10/26/nazi_case_for_hamas/

The Palestinians also precipitated a civil war in Lebanon. Everywhere the PLO went it caused havoc.

Hamas has it's roots in the Muslim Brotherhood which is a banned organisation in Egypt. The last thing they want is Hamas terrorists crossing the border.

It's not merely "wartime rhetoric" from Hamas that they don't want peace, it's part of their core ideology. While they have more recently tried to, supposedly, tone down the antisemitism, they haven't changed their agenda.

Now I guess you could argue that we can't trust anything Hamas says about their own ideology, and they really are open to peace, but I think that would be a fantasy position.

Egypt ruled over Gaza from 1948 until 1967 and at no point even considered permitting an independent Palestinian state within it. The reason for this was that a Palestinian identity had not yet formed. It didn't really exist. It existed only as part of the former Baathist dream of a united arab nation.

One thing I've heard very little about is alternatives to Hamas - is there another, less extreme political party / set of leaders in Palestine?

The "moderates" are Fatah over on the West Bank, but they get caught saying similar stuff to Hamas.

There may be smaller groups that are different.

Egypt actually poured human effluent and sea water into Hamas' terror tunnels. Hamas started constructing the tunnels after Egypt and Israel had agreed to some kind of accord. Hamas uses the tunnels for smuggling and terror, and furthermore Egypt does not want Hamas based destabilisation in their country; plus they are very wary of Iranian influence, just like the Israelis, and which is why the port in Gaza is subject to Israeli over-sight.

Gaza could have been a pleasant land beside the sea ( there are ( or were) lots of high rises and very desirable mansions with swimming pools etc along the sea coast) but Hamas chose terrorism and jihad instead.

On this note, I read (English translations of) Hamas' charter from 1988 and the more recent, I think 2017 one. The latter has definitely been substantially altered to remove some of the more egregious parts.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

1988

As this is a thread about feminism and women, here are the relevant sections:
'
'Article Seventeen:

The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

Article Eighteen:

Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Moslem girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation.

She has to be of sufficient knowledge and understanding where the performance of housekeeping matters are concerned, because economy and avoidance of waste of the family budget, is one of the requirements for the ability to continue moving forward in the difficult conditions surrounding us. She should put before her eyes the fact that the money available to her is just like blood which should never flow except through the veins so that both children and grown-ups could continue to live.

"Verily, the Moslems of either sex, and the true believers of either sex, and the devout men, and the devout women, and the men of veracity, and the women of veracity, and the patient men, and the patient women, and the humble men, and the humble women, and the alms-givers of either sex who remember Allah frequently; for them hath Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward." (The Confederates - verse 25).'

2017:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

Section on women has been removed apart from:

'34. The role of Palestinian women is fundamental in the process of building the present and the future, just as it has always been in the process of making Palestinian history. It is a pivotal role in the project of resistance, liberation and building the political system.'

It's pure fascism, this is why I can't understand the attitude of Feminists. Are young women really embracing the dark side of trad wives?

I think of murder as intentional killing of an individual. So killing through bombing is not murder in the same way but manslaughter / casualties of war

But people of course do use the word murder in different ways. I think the legal definition requires specific intent.

Again the article does not state that the Red Cross have not been granted access to any hostages during the entire conflict. Screenshotting the article where it clearly isn’t saying that but saying as of 15 November that they need safe access to do their work in Gaza after the killing of many Red Cross workers in Gaza by IDF is about the current heavy conflict situation going on.

Look back that the hostage releases. The first two who were released were Judith and Natalie Raanan. Who met Hamas and then transported them out of Gaza? The Red Cross.
“A Qatari foreign ministry spokesperson said it took place "after many days of continuous communication" and dialogue on the release of more hostages would continue. The International Committee of the Red Cross says it helped facilitate the release by transporting them from Gaza to Israel.”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/us-hostages-judith-and-natalie-raanan-released-by-hamas/103005364

Then the other two hostages released, who brought them out of Gaza? Also the Red Cross. Who was the doctor Yocheved Lifshitz refers to if not Red Cross?
“The release of the two hostages, 85-year-old Yocheved Lifshitz and 79-year-old Nurit Cooper, was confirmed by the ICRC”
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/23/hamas-releases-two-women-held-hostage-after-egyptian-qatari-diplomacy

and
”The 85-year-old is one of four hostages who have been released on humanitarian grounds by the resistance, she was handed over to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) last night before being transported to Egypt then back to Israel.”
Again who was the paramedic of not Red Cross?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231024-freed-israeli-hostage-they-took-care-of-us-and-treated-us-humanely/

The article is about a lack of safety to Red Cross workers in Gaza because it is a war zone, not lack of being granted access.

Egypt doesnt want to be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. There is mass support for Palestine in Egypt, including demonstrations in support of Sisi's refusal to open the border.

Beyond that, Egypt cannot cope with over 2m traumatised people, there is also Israel's stated desire to take over the Sinai peninsula (which was taken in 67 and recaptured by Egypt in 73). If the Palestinians were relocated to Sinai (the area next door to Gaza), there is a strong risk that Israel might extend its campaign into Sinai on the basis that there was Hamas hiding among the refugees.

@pinklemonade2
”And yes, when you're debating the precise method of baby murder (regardless of 'side') as if somehow it's justifiable if it's one method rather than another then you've definitely taken a moral wrong turn somewhere. I think we need to discuss this more. I really do.”

Agree 100%. Baby murder is abhorrent, should never be justified or accepted no matter the means. The same for rape as that is the original atrocity of this thread.

“I don't think the two different ways that babies died at the hands of Hamas vs at the hands of the IDF are morally equivalent at all.”

Wait, what?! Was the don’t a typo?

I believe Hamas when they say they would repeat 7th October as many times as they could because the twisted sick sadistic fucks appeared to enjoy committing as many disgusting, offensive and upsetting acts as they could. It wasn't just an attack on Israelis, it was deliberately designed to cause as much outrage, upset and pain as possible. It shows the sort of group that they are.

They are not a government prosecuting a war, they are a proscribed terrorist organisation committing acts of terror.

Do I believe Israel with their increasingly alarming and far right rhetoric? Their actions in Gaza are exceptionally disproportionate and careless in their killings of civilians (although one wonders what the appropriately proportionate level of response to Hamas's actions might be given the level of depravity, it's not something I can bear to think about). Their actions on the West Bank are what might give away their real intentions. Netanyahu and his government are dangerous and need to go, and hopefully be prosecuted for war crimes. I would hope for more moderate replacements.

BUT the Israeli government are not a proscribed terrorist organisation. They are heavily funded by the US. There is potential for them to listen to the international community. They have responded to some concerns. There is potential for change.

Is there potential for change in Hamas? I can't see it. A more moderate terrorist organisation? They are, however, funded by Iran who don't appear to be delighted by the turn of events and don't seem to be giving the support Hamas hoped for. Perhaps we will have to wait for a point where Israel thinks they have been sufficiently routed and if so, may that come as quickly as possible.

Yes to both. Not threats of military action, actual military action. Each time Egypt attempted to open the crossing without Israel’s agreement, Israel bombed the crossing. Israel bombed it three times in one 24 hour period. Israel also accidentally fired a tank at Egyptian border guards.

This was early in the conflict. Egypt gave up trying to go around Israel. Once talks got to the point that Israel agreed to let a trickle of aid in and some foreigners out, Egypt only started to repair the Rafah Crossing when Israel promised their personnel would be safe and the crossing would not be bombed again nor would tanks open fire.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas/rafah-border-crossing-endured-4-bombings-from-israel-egypt-says-104043522?id=103804516

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/h_41ca31db3d1405a6f0e527a05b3de725

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Looking behind the labels of proscribed terrorist organisation and government, I sometimes wonder about the parallels drawn by the countries that seem to identify with the Palestinian side of the Gaza conflict the most. Ireland and South Africa have both come out in very strong criticism of Israel. I do wonder if their own history of proscribed terrorist groups fighting apartheid or occupation has them see Hamas in a different light, as in not so far beyond redemption that there is a small chance that war time rhetoric is war time rhetoric and nothing more.

@BabaBarrio

You said:

”Here is one example, the comment that Red Cross and UN are doing nothing for the hostages is misinformation. They have been mediating all the hostage releases and per the testimony of all released hostages a Red Cross paramedic checked on each hostage every other day and ensured they received medicine or medical care. The UN ensured that hostages ate same food a water as their Hamas captors.” In relation to pp’s misinformation.

This is from the Red Cross website:

“Why hasn’t the ICRC visited hostages?
The ICRC continues to request access to the hostages, to ascertain their state of health and to be able to inform their families of their condition.” It continues with additional information around the hostages.

Your post suggests that the Red Cross has seen and is seeing each hostage every other day. The Red Cross say they are continuing to request access to the hostages. It does not say that they’ve seen each hostage every other day.

I wasn’t referring to an article, I was referring to what you posted.