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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female boxer withdraws from fight with transwoman

256 replies

ArthurbellaScott · 15/11/2023 14:27

https://reduxx.info/canada-female-boxer-withdraws-from-competition-after-being-matched-against-male-fighter/

'The Quebec Boxing Federation was reportedly aware of Walmsley’s biological sex, but justified the fight by stating they had chosen an appropriate referee for the match. Ultimately, Bissonnette says her decision to withdraw came down to safety.'

'Following Bissonnette’s withdrawal, Walmsley issued a statement to the press accusing her of “outing” him and warning that similar actions would have a negative impact on female athletes.'

CANADA: Female Boxer Withdraws From Competition After Being Matched Against Male Fighter - Reduxx

A female boxer withdrew from a provincial championship in Quebec after learning that her opponent was biologically male, leading to him winning the competition by default. Dr. Katia Bissonnette of Saguenay says she was matched against transgender fight...

https://reduxx.info/canada-female-boxer-withdraws-from-competition-after-being-matched-against-male-fighter

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
JanesLittleGirl · 20/11/2023 22:46

Boiledbeetle · 20/11/2023 22:31

😂

Bugger! OK I lied! But won't you call me your highness...just once

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!

Goes off to sulk because no one will affirm my delusions!

You are the very model of a 19th Century female monarch.

JanesLittleGirl · 20/11/2023 22:46

JanesLittleGirl · 20/11/2023 22:46

You are the very model of a 19th Century female monarch.

Ma'am

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/11/2023 22:48

JanesLittleGirl · 20/11/2023 22:46

Ma'am

I am Ma’am!!!!!

BritneyBookClubPresident · 20/11/2023 23:08

I feel so sad that a woman had to withdraw but for her safety it was the only course of action. Also it's hopefully shone a light on the issue.

The only thing more ridiculous than her opponent's statement was the but about a "suitable" referee 🤨. On what planet does that even out a man fighting a woman!?

SinnerBoy · 21/11/2023 10:29

Paola11 · Yesterday 17:04

yeah I know, it’s pretty hard to notice it. Btw I thought “mums” would have more love and understating, but I notice more hatred.

I hate liars, bullies and cheats and trans identifying males who want to participate in women's sports are all of those things. Every time one of them gets to have a go with women, they seemingly smash all the records, even if they were the 500th best man.

There are several cases of trans MMA fighters seriously injuring women, which is almost unheard of in woman-woman contests. They report that they've never been hit, or gripped as hard by another woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox

Fox broke Tamikka Brents' eye socket.

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents on September 13, 2014, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch

SavBlancTonight · 21/11/2023 10:35

And now a footballer has withdrawn and threatened to sue for discrimination because other teams are refusing to play against the team with a trans woman in it - becuase of the safety issues. Multiple women have already been hurt.

LudicrousDickbiscuit · 21/11/2023 10:57

I think I like the Thanks button, but on threads like this I really wish there was a "haha lol" button as well. Or a "FFS, maaate" one.

SirChenjins · 21/11/2023 11:04

SavBlancTonight · 21/11/2023 10:35

And now a footballer has withdrawn and threatened to sue for discrimination because other teams are refusing to play against the team with a trans woman in it - becuase of the safety issues. Multiple women have already been hurt.

Is that footballer a trans-identifying male?

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 11:05

SirChenjins · 21/11/2023 11:04

Is that footballer a trans-identifying male?

yes. They are indeed.

TrashedSofa · 21/11/2023 11:09

But of course.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 11:17

Paola11 · 20/11/2023 17:19

Btw there’s no conclusive evidence for everything you say here. Everything is unsubstantiated and exclusively based on hatred. Here
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27699698/

Why have you posted this old study from 2017? Are you so very out of date?

Here, this one from Dr Hilton and T Lundberg. This and the next link are reviews of 13 previous studies.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

The second from Harper et al.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Conclusions are in line with No. 1. For information (considering many people will seek to discredit based on alleged bias) Harper is the transwoman who has released some sports studies in the past that had some methodology issues.

PLUS

Adding the USAF study here for people to read.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

AND

The Brazilian study.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

And from Ross Tucker on this study

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

I have plenty more @Paola11 if you are actually interested in the science. I think though you seem more interested in trying to shame posters and silence the discussion with empty accusations of transphobia. You don't seem particularly well informed about the current findings yet you seem to think you do. You posted this: "Do your research properly. Not here to educate you.". You sound incredibly confident with that comment, I must say.

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage - Sports Medicine

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 11:27

Paola11 · 20/11/2023 17:07

First of all, it’s transphobic to call “man” a trans woman. She doesn’t “say”, she is a woman. Maybe not a born-woman, but still is.

In your opinion that is. It is YOUR choice to believe that a male person declaring they are a 'woman' is what they say they are. I am sure that you also extend that to the people who declare they are cats, lizards or snakes who also seek extreme body modifications to make their bodies resemble their identities, don't you?

But hilariously you continued to post your poorly informed takes on this thread.

"Lol right. Just by default. Forget science and the real world, it just comes down to “individual’s truth”. I thought we were done with this philosophy centuries ago"

ummm.... Has the hypocrisy alarm deafened you yet?

You are here scolding and shaming posters for using sex based facts, declaring that a male who declares they are a woman is a woman, while then delivering this little gem. Where you then attempt to shame a poster for their 'individual truth'.

Speaking of philosphical theories, I suggest any reader of this thread look up postmodernism. It seems that you, paelo are someone who is very much a follower of those theories as well as other pseudoscience. All while seeming to declare that you are the superior intellect following 'science and the real world'.

Thanks for providing us all with a laugh.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 11:30

Sorry, just realised that unremarkable posted Hilton and Lundberg.

Still, the Harper paper came to similar conclusions but I wonder in that poster paolo will return and tell us why Joanne Harper is wrong. But I doubt it. With the deletions, I expect that they will not be back to make us laugh some more.

SavBlancTonight · 21/11/2023 11:30

SirChenjins · 21/11/2023 11:04

Is that footballer a trans-identifying male?

Yup! Transwoman who has injured multiple women in matches, is OUTRAGED that other teams have chosen NOT to play matches that include this person in the opposing team.

SirChenjins · 21/11/2023 11:52

SavBlancTonight · 21/11/2023 11:30

Yup! Transwoman who has injured multiple women in matches, is OUTRAGED that other teams have chosen NOT to play matches that include this person in the opposing team.

I’d like to say I’m surprised that a man would be outraged at being told no by a bunch of women but I’d be a liar (an actual one, not a self-identified one).

Bambooshoot · 21/11/2023 11:53

Paola11 · 20/11/2023 17:32

“What - the human right for a male to belt the living daylights out of a woman by saying the magic words”

Calling a woman “him”. Is it so hard for you to get it? Is it?

also, as I quoted an academic paper there is no evidence for this. So you just propagandise transphobia.

He’s a man. And calling someone transphobic isn’t the insult you think it is.

CatonmyKeyboard · 21/11/2023 12:02

The first line of one of those papers...
'Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport.'

Some of them enjoy it altogether too much, I'd say.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 21/11/2023 12:16

Paola11 · 20/11/2023 17:14

I’m not talking about the actual fight, I’m talking about everything around it. Everyone here insists on calling her as him and male. This is transphobia. Everything else is debatable.

The safety of that biological female boxer is not a debate and your posts reek of misogyny

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 21/11/2023 12:17

Paola11 · 20/11/2023 17:23

How do you know that you you’re a human? How do you know this world is real?

Ah. So you're on a wind up. Good to know Grin

UnremarkableBeasts · 21/11/2023 12:19

CatonmyKeyboard · 21/11/2023 12:02

The first line of one of those papers...
'Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport.'

Some of them enjoy it altogether too much, I'd say.

The issue is that the poster is doing that standard thing of claiming to be ‘evidence based’ but actually they operate on an affirming their own beliefs model of epistemology (and even ontology). Knowledge is ‘truth’ when it supports them and ‘transphobic bigotry’ otherwise.

The poster linked to a 2017 paper that isn’t even about the performance offences between the sexes. It’s a small review of 8 studies and some policy documents about the barriers that trans people face (and perceive) around participating in sport. Which is a completely different thing.

The point that you don’t review policy documents in the same ways as you might (systematically) review research studies is also worth surfacing.

It’s like marking one of those student essays where you have to keep commenting ‘the referenced resource is not about what you claim it is’. A paper about X doesn’t not become evidence for Y because someone wishes it was.

JL690 · 21/11/2023 12:26

I think there's a certain poster getting their kicks out of winding us up.

PaterPower · 21/11/2023 12:44

The ICC (International governing body for Cricket) have announced this morning that those men that have been through male puberty will be banned from playing international women’s cricket.

It only impacts selection for international games, but you’d hope that the fact they’ve cited safety concerns will mean that domestic ruling bodies will adopt a similar approach… although I suspect Canada is too captured and will ignore it for their domestic leagues.

They took 9 months to review the available scientific and other evidence and concluded that safety (and fairness for women) meant men shouldn’t be permitted to play in the games they regulate.

SirChenjins · 21/11/2023 12:48

Excellent news from the ICC. Could have gone further obviously, but it’s an important step forward in protecting women, both in terms of physical safety and position within the sport. Trans-identifying males need to be clear that their self-identify does not trump the rights of women.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 14:16

JL690 · 21/11/2023 12:26

I think there's a certain poster getting their kicks out of winding us up.

Or are trying to show the world that some people are so mindlessly supportive of the belief that someone is what they say they are that they have just as mindlessly repeated as many of the tropish and absurd argument points as they could think of.

Just to show those reading how absurd it all really is.

I mean, either they cannot see their raging hypocrisy hidden by their supreme righteousness, or they are not very clever despite believing they are (or that they people they have read and regurgitated here are). Either can, of course, be true at the same time.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2023 14:23

PaterPower · 21/11/2023 12:44

The ICC (International governing body for Cricket) have announced this morning that those men that have been through male puberty will be banned from playing international women’s cricket.

It only impacts selection for international games, but you’d hope that the fact they’ve cited safety concerns will mean that domestic ruling bodies will adopt a similar approach… although I suspect Canada is too captured and will ignore it for their domestic leagues.

They took 9 months to review the available scientific and other evidence and concluded that safety (and fairness for women) meant men shouldn’t be permitted to play in the games they regulate.

Well then. Let's see how this plays out then for the UK. Because I wonder whether the UK cricket regulators will adopt this considering just how much they have lionised some of their male players in the female teams in recent years.

Will Blythin give back their awards? Indeed, did Blythin ever confirm that their medical condition was ever diagnosed by a doctor after denying they ever went through male puberty? I suspect not. Yet there they are still playing at county level. Wiltshire now. They have moved on from Kent.

https://www.womensrights.network/post/which-way-will-the-england-and-wales-cricket-board-fall

Which way will the England and Wales Cricket Board fall

Which way will the England and Wales Cricket Board fall on fair sport for women and girls? The Women’s Ashes are due to start on 22nd June 2023 kicking off at Trent Bridge with a five-day Test Match. The BBC have reported that ticket sales have broken...

https://www.womensrights.network/post/which-way-will-the-england-and-wales-cricket-board-fall

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