Caster Semenya on BBC1 now

[Davros]

I had to turn off

Cross post.

I wonder which poster wins the prize for most deleted comments in this thread? By your logic, Ladiesssss, is that poster the most offensive in this thread?

I do not believe that there is a 15 year old girl in existence who would appear topless on a school trip. The teachers wouldn't allowed it, and the other kids would go nuts about it, even if you could find a 15 year old girl who wanted to do it. Not a chance that CS, CS's peers, or the adults in CS's life considered CS a girl at that point in time. When CS was 15, before international competition.

Semenya must be trolling with proud of the photo, given it’s in the book. So I think it’s fine to be shown more widely.

Actually ‘because Caster wants it’ is a very powerful and persuasive argument.

Since at least the 1960’s we have lived under a liberal progressive political doctrine and morality that say amongst other things that people can and should get to do whatever they want and get to be whoever they want to be and that society needed to change to accept them not the other way round. This has been happening for decades one step at a time. Feminists were all in favour of this liberal progressive morality until very recently and seem to believe it should just stop once they get what they want. But that is just not how it works. If you want to stop this you would have to get society to change the moral principles that have been held for decades.

A picture of a boy in swim shorts on a beach? why not?

But insta or Twitter have policies about showing female nipples don’t they? If they believe CS is female they would have to alter it wouldn’t they?

I don’t think many women (athletes or not) would publish a young teen topless picture in a book- surely dodgy ground.

Interesting CS has no issue with it. Not the publishers.

Because we are sold the lie that CS was raised a girl and is now a woman.

They might be selling a lie, but many of us aren’t buying it.

it's a very legitimate picture to post other than possibly for copyright reasons because, simply, CS chose it for publication in her book, CS clearly wants people to see the picture. CS's book makes for interesting reading because she's led an interesting life.

We might not but it’s the “official” line- how do the publishers justify publishing a topless teenage girl whilst also pushing the line CS is a women who was raised as a girl?

Its like saying “here’s HER book (wink)” it makes no sense.

I agree it’s trolling really. How can you claim you were raised as a girl then publish a photo like that?

I snaffled the photo from the CS Biography thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4822942-caster-semenya-biography?page=1

I've sent a copy of this to my DB who is swearing blind that CS was totally convinced that CS was female.

I'm speculating/reaching wildly but I suppose CS might see herself as a kind of 'chimera' with a male upper body and female lower?

Ladiesssss · Today 19:31

All of the patronising and discrimination

Are you suggesting that people are being patronising towards you? That's not the case, pointing out that your statements are counter-factual and entirely wrong may cause you upset, but there are links on the thread to verified information about Semanya.

If you choose not to read them and continue to make claims, which are incorrect, expect that people will try to correct your misinformation.

not make me any less sure of my belief that this is hate speech and should not be allowed on a public forum.

MN can and do delete hate speech, regularly. They tend towards the view that TWAW, although since Maya Forstater's legal win, they have been more tolerant.

Stating the fact: "Caster Semanya is a man, with the DSD 5-ARD and therefore, was never genuinely eligible to compete with women," is neither false, nor hate speech.

This is an interesting quote Ross Tucker has clipped from the CAS finding.

It says:

“Because they are "biologically indistinguishable.. in all relevant respects". athletes with 5-ARD experience the same ergogenic effect from these physiological changes as males without DSD experience. The only material physical difference between 5-ARD athletes and male athletes without DSD is "the size and shape of their external genitals", which has no impact on athletic performance.”

“While no 5-ARD athlete has yet won a women's event by a margin of 10-12%, this fact has nothing to do with their condition. Rather, it reflects the fact that, "the particular [5-ARD] athletes we have seen thus far are not as good as the best males. Like many other (non-elite) males, they still beat the very best biological females, just by a smaller margin."”

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1722006033491513584?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

His tweet says:

“It's interesting that this came up in the CAS hearing, too. World Athletics had kind of tap danced and skirted around it in the Chand case, but when Semenya played this card at CAS, World Athletics responded, and point 289 of the CAS decision captures the conclusion:”

for anyone who didn’t catch the significant part I will pull it out:

”The only material physical difference between 5-ARD athletes and male athletes without DSD is "the size and shape of their external genitals", which has no impact on athletic performance.”

So court documents state Semenya has 5ARD and then this paragraph is clear that these are male athletes and that they are not elite standard male athletes compared to where the scientific and medical evidence predict their development and competitiveness should be. Maybe this is another version of the influence of low expectations as we have seen in that USAF study where the males, when allowed to be assessed using the female lower pass boundary in the physical tests, saw reduced performance. Ie. If the athlete doesn’t have to perform at the highest rate possible for them, they won’t.

To be blunt, if Semenya didn’t need to perform at the highest performance level possible for them, why would they? Doing so would increase their own risk if injury and of ending their career. Could they have succeeded in the elite male category if that was the level they trained to? We will never know.

Kallikrates · Today 21:24

That's no sealion, it's a trans manatee, you monster!!!

I had the radio on at work but too difficult to listen properly there, so just listened uninterrupted to the interview with EB.

I'm struck by a couple of things - somewhere near the start of the programme CS says they have studied sports science and "understood" certain facts.....but later repeatedly insisted that testosterone had no impact on performance (in sport).

Secondly, it was apparently news to them (that was leaked) after they were tested in Berlin, that they had no uterus and no fallopian tubes , and iirc undescended testes.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but surely this would mean they had no menstrual cycle? How would that not have been flagged up before they were 18?
It's just plain wrong to insist that they're basically the same as other women with some minor difference that gives no physical, biological advantage.

CS has suffered due to the fact that her condition was not recognised in childhood - though it seems she has always lived and been thought of as a boy; and this became even more apparent after puberty.

CS has had to deal with the confusion and consequnces of this condition - and for that we can have empathy. However, the issue is that she is biologically and chromosomally male - and this is an issue when it comes to fair play in women's sporting events. It is not 'hate speech' to discuss this or to point it out.

I'd be cautious about using such phrasing when referring to things one doesn't like or agree with, because at some point it will come for you too. The best way to show up ignorance is to debate it; using clear arguments and evidence. If someone's position does not hold water it is better exposed in this way, rather through threats of cancellation.

The irony you're telling me to be cautious about using phrasing when referring to things one doesn't agree with or like. My whole point of view is that the folk protesting against CS are using inflammatory language. CS identifies as a woman and therefore that should be respected. The argument of whether or not she should be allowed to compete in a woman's race is another argument. My gripe is that she believes and identifies as female. Calling her male repeatedly and in a nasty fashion is at best unkind.

From having seen various interviews with CS, I don't think it is clear, at all, that 'she identifies as a woman'. Legally she is, though judging from her own words and those of people around her, including her father - she was always thought of, and treated, as a boy. People's instinctive awareness of her reality was always evident - even if they didn't 'officially' know it.

I think Emma Barnett ws perfectly polite and respectful in the interview, whilst also challenging unsubstantiated, unclear and false statements and claims. In a similar situation I'm sure most people here would be too. but this is a discussion board - not a personal interaction with CS.

It is not hateful to discuss issues which have profound effect on women and girls on a discussion board dedicated to issues faced by women and girls.

She herself has been dismissive of girls and women, and presents herself as male and in masculine ways - and always has done - except for when running in women's Olympic, and other, events

CS - has male puberty, publishes photo of them topless as a teenager showing obviously male body, disses women, dissociates self from girl things, only ever wears stereotypical male clothing

also CS - I’m totes a girl though

literally the only time & the only reason that CS plays the “I’m a woman” card is on the track

CS is not a different type of woman, CS is a man.

Calling her male repeatedly

Because it’s true.

and in a nasty fashion

I think you are mistaking anger at the attempted gaslighting for nastiness. We’ve had enough of the repeated lies at women’s expense.

is at best unkind.

I’ll take that. As if I care about unkind to Semenya 🤣 a man who has robbed women of opportunities and continues to lie to the world 🤣.

@RebelliousCow I respect your argument but disagree that the posters on this forum have been polite and respectful towards CS and would be in any real life interaction with her.

It is not hateful to discuss, but it is hateful to use the language and repeatedly dismiss her as a male throughout.