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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK

687 replies

Notaflippinclue · 04/11/2023 22:14

Why the fuck has MUMSNET cancelled her

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
BonfireLady · 05/11/2023 21:47

Bloody hell, that was an essay. Well done to anyone that got to the end of it
🤦‍♀️

Catsanfan · 05/11/2023 23:16

And it was amazing. Personally, I have to say I adore glinner

AlphaTransWoman · 05/11/2023 23:21

@BonfireLady
Yes, I got to the end of it. Thank you.

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

But I've got an awful lot out of the visit. Mostly the realisation that, despite my silly outburst about debating KJK, I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

Meanwhile, I'll go away and ponder things. I think I need some therapy to try and disentangle some of the wires that have got crossed, or at least to be more aware of where the irrationalities are. Talking about these things here has been a useful starting point.

On the flip side, I do hope this has been of some benefit to you in understanding how at least some types of trans women think about the gender debate. I've tried not to be just another hostile TRA by being honest about my feelings, but maybe that wasn't always the constructive thing to do. Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Thanks again,

Alpha😀

(PS - not sure why I picked such a daft name. I think I was trying to be ironic or something like that)

Syrupycake · 05/11/2023 23:59

The only way to narrow the gap on single sex spaces is for men to keep out of them.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 06/11/2023 00:05

Syrupycake · 05/11/2023 23:59

The only way to narrow the gap on single sex spaces is for men to keep out of them.

Yep progress made 0.
Women: stay out it is harmful to us if you don't.
Man: it makes me sad if I don't use women's spaces so I'm going to carry on.
Women: so no change then.
Man: Hey great progress today.

Datun · 06/11/2023 00:13

AlphaTransWoman · 05/11/2023 23:21

@BonfireLady
Yes, I got to the end of it. Thank you.

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

But I've got an awful lot out of the visit. Mostly the realisation that, despite my silly outburst about debating KJK, I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

Meanwhile, I'll go away and ponder things. I think I need some therapy to try and disentangle some of the wires that have got crossed, or at least to be more aware of where the irrationalities are. Talking about these things here has been a useful starting point.

On the flip side, I do hope this has been of some benefit to you in understanding how at least some types of trans women think about the gender debate. I've tried not to be just another hostile TRA by being honest about my feelings, but maybe that wasn't always the constructive thing to do. Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Thanks again,

Alpha😀

(PS - not sure why I picked such a daft name. I think I was trying to be ironic or something like that)

The boot's on the neck whether it's placed there without asking, or whether it's preceded with an 'excuse me, would you mind rolling over so I can place my boot, ah yes, right there'.

Either way, it's your boot on our non consenting neck. Whether you're rude about it or polite, is a distinction without a difference.

Go well.

ILikeDungs · 06/11/2023 00:17

What happened between:

"Bring it on...

Her vs me.

Any debating rules acceptable if equally applied. Any questions accepted. Free speech within the rule of law.

Shall we do this?

...and:

flounce ?

Does "I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication."

translate to

"I can't explain this batshit ideology any better than Freddy, please god get me outta here" ?

I think it does, and fair enough. Yes, some wires have got crossed. Do some thinking and talking, and then come back when you are ready to talk to women as humans rather than whatever it is you see us as, in your head.

MavisMcMinty · 06/11/2023 01:17

AlphaTransWoman · 05/11/2023 23:21

@BonfireLady
Yes, I got to the end of it. Thank you.

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

But I've got an awful lot out of the visit. Mostly the realisation that, despite my silly outburst about debating KJK, I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

Meanwhile, I'll go away and ponder things. I think I need some therapy to try and disentangle some of the wires that have got crossed, or at least to be more aware of where the irrationalities are. Talking about these things here has been a useful starting point.

On the flip side, I do hope this has been of some benefit to you in understanding how at least some types of trans women think about the gender debate. I've tried not to be just another hostile TRA by being honest about my feelings, but maybe that wasn't always the constructive thing to do. Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Thanks again,

Alpha😀

(PS - not sure why I picked such a daft name. I think I was trying to be ironic or something like that)

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

Why are you referring to yourself in the third person? Is it because “I/me” is gender neutral and God forbid we think of you as a man?

I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

There is no one better. There are no arguments. Your “feelings” and those of other transwomen do not and will never trump my right to single-sex women-only spaces.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces.

Really? What progress was that, did I miss those posts? Unless you mean you’ll stay out of our spaces from now on - that’d be progress.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 01:24

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

I guess it's down to you now to sell third spaces to r/MTF. Good luck, wait to hear.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 06/11/2023 01:35

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces.

Its a such a bizarre statement. No progress has been made.

But his contribution does demonstrate tra behaviour. A thread to talk about a woman was me-railed by a man for no reason. The offer of debate - with a woman who isnt on mn, was rescinded almost immediately.

Nothing has change, but he asserts progress has been made. Given all he's managed to do is stop women talking about a womens rights activist and look at him instead, i can only assume that that is progress for him.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 05:33

Well, it finally sank in that plopping in to the support thread for transwidows was just yet another, while the worst, boundary that this male individual didn’t want to recognise. And that behaviour was vile and there was never any going back on it. Just like the barrister who I won’t name appearing on Sarah Summer’s support thread. There was no coming back from this weekend’s boundary breach.

It just showed there is nowhere this group of male people believe is an area where they shouldn’t go. The absolute male entitlement of traversing anywhere where there is no law, or a physical boundary to stop them, just because they can. Never once thinking of someone other than themselves.

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory. The misogyny of telling us that they contributed in some way to positive understanding and progress when the reality is the only ‘progress’ was that more posters than before now can recognise the signs of misogyny and fetish than before.

But then I guess we all got a fresh exposure to the falsity of the ‘middle ground’ type of argument. That desperate grasp of ‘at least it is only when no other options are available’ from people needing to be seen as kind. When the truth is, it is not kind and never was.

Just one male entering a female single sex space impacts many women and girls. And sure, more posters got to see more of the lack of logic, and evidence, behind the emotionally manipulative ‘but it is unsafe for me in the male toilets’.

Nothing new really though.

A male person arrived, used women as a resource. This time for therapeutic value, for amusement or other entertainment, while believing we should be grateful for them not being obviously abusive.

When in reality, it was just another form of abuse.

Of scolding us for not being ‘kind’ and using the pronouns of a misogynistic abuser like Mulvaney, of telling women what womanhood is when framed by a male person who didn’t want to be the best male person they could be so they literally and figuratively forced their way into ‘womanhood’, as a start. But also exposing us, non-consensually, to their underlying and never acknowledged pleasure of our reactions. Such as our protestations, blunt rebuttals or through some posters providing that source of validation actively sought.

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 06:01

That should be: Just one male entering a female single sex space just once impacts many women and girls.

And ‘enlighten’ should be ‘enlightenment’.

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:02

Helle, I'm forcibly reminded of that poster called ATransMum or similar. Do you remember him?

Finally, after hundreds of posts, he admitted the existence of fetishists but claimed that he didn't want to be in the presence of 'pervs' (actually I think he said 'perved on') any more than we did.

But, nonetheless, the only way he could feel 'vibrant' was in women's clothes.

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:05

Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Totally. 😄

BezMills · 06/11/2023 07:15

That KJK though, what a legend amirite?

AlisonDonut · 06/11/2023 07:15

I mean, we totally understood men getting into women's spaces long, long before a man came here telling us why he wants to get into women's spaces.

Well, I did. Decades ago. No man coming in to explain in even more excruciatingly narcissistic detail will ever shift my perspective.

BezMills · 06/11/2023 07:21

Not Any Real Concern. Self-obsessed, Ulterior Persistent Posting Like Yesterday.

Syrupycake · 06/11/2023 07:23

Well KJK shows us what they’re like even when she’s banned.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 07:41

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:02

Helle, I'm forcibly reminded of that poster called ATransMum or similar. Do you remember him?

Finally, after hundreds of posts, he admitted the existence of fetishists but claimed that he didn't want to be in the presence of 'pervs' (actually I think he said 'perved on') any more than we did.

But, nonetheless, the only way he could feel 'vibrant' was in women's clothes.

Yes Datun.

But there are so many in the past. And why should women have to go through this abusive process so others can feel like they have done the right thing? FFS. We cannot be fucking clearer in this board without being deleted or getting warning letters telling us we are now being watched, can we?

But we are supposed to do it apparently because others can’t recognise the abusiveness of the situation. All because someone’s need to cling to kindness while understanding abuse and the boundaries of others means these threads become a living analogy of the issue of boundary encroachment discussed - those who do it and those who enable it.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 08:24

And of course while should be without.

teawamutu · 06/11/2023 09:13

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 06/11/2023 00:05

Yep progress made 0.
Women: stay out it is harmful to us if you don't.
Man: it makes me sad if I don't use women's spaces so I'm going to carry on.
Women: so no change then.
Man: Hey great progress today.

<chef's kiss>

catduckgoose · 06/11/2023 10:51

I think KJK got some stick from other GCs for criticising Islam as well. Which seemed odd to me. Like, it's fine for her to point out the inherent misogyny of the transactivist movement, but not the misogyny that Islam is built upon? Double standards.

BonfireLady · 06/11/2023 11:14

And why should women have to go through this abusive process so others can feel like they have done the right thing? FFS. We cannot be fucking clearer in this board without being deleted or getting warning letters telling us we are now being watched, can we?

But we are supposed to do it apparently because others can’t recognise the abusiveness of the situation. All because someone’s need to cling to kindness while understanding abuse and the boundaries of others means these threads become a living analogy of the issue of boundary encroachment discussed - those who do it and those who enable it.

@Helleofabore I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here who has a "need to cling on to kindness". Or anyone who is enabling abuse. Can you elaborate?

SidewaysOtter · 06/11/2023 11:19

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory.

I thought that was hilarious (along with them starting to refer to themselves in the third person). Alpha, you didn't change my mind one iota.

On the subject in hand, I don't agree with everything Posie says, but then I don't think I know anyone with whom I agree on everything. But she does a bloody brilliant job of getting the gender critical message across and her LWS events are great.

I suspect a lot of the hate she gets is for being everything a woman is supposed not to be: blunt, uncompromising and firmly standing her ground.

GailBlancheViola · 06/11/2023 13:18

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 05:33

Well, it finally sank in that plopping in to the support thread for transwidows was just yet another, while the worst, boundary that this male individual didn’t want to recognise. And that behaviour was vile and there was never any going back on it. Just like the barrister who I won’t name appearing on Sarah Summer’s support thread. There was no coming back from this weekend’s boundary breach.

It just showed there is nowhere this group of male people believe is an area where they shouldn’t go. The absolute male entitlement of traversing anywhere where there is no law, or a physical boundary to stop them, just because they can. Never once thinking of someone other than themselves.

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory. The misogyny of telling us that they contributed in some way to positive understanding and progress when the reality is the only ‘progress’ was that more posters than before now can recognise the signs of misogyny and fetish than before.

But then I guess we all got a fresh exposure to the falsity of the ‘middle ground’ type of argument. That desperate grasp of ‘at least it is only when no other options are available’ from people needing to be seen as kind. When the truth is, it is not kind and never was.

Just one male entering a female single sex space impacts many women and girls. And sure, more posters got to see more of the lack of logic, and evidence, behind the emotionally manipulative ‘but it is unsafe for me in the male toilets’.

Nothing new really though.

A male person arrived, used women as a resource. This time for therapeutic value, for amusement or other entertainment, while believing we should be grateful for them not being obviously abusive.

When in reality, it was just another form of abuse.

Of scolding us for not being ‘kind’ and using the pronouns of a misogynistic abuser like Mulvaney, of telling women what womanhood is when framed by a male person who didn’t want to be the best male person they could be so they literally and figuratively forced their way into ‘womanhood’, as a start. But also exposing us, non-consensually, to their underlying and never acknowledged pleasure of our reactions. Such as our protestations, blunt rebuttals or through some posters providing that source of validation actively sought.

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

Excellent post Hellofabore, I particularly liked this bit:

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

I hope the middle grounders/be kinders/tone policers/word policers/mind our languagers will take note, I doubt they will as they are equally as awash with self righteousness as was our Alpha visitor.