KJK

[Notaflippinclue]

Why the fuck has MUMSNET cancelled her

I must remember my last post….

Trans ideology can only be argued in theory. We have to imagine a man who is indistinguishable from a woman to be happy with that man in womans spaces.

As soon as we see eddie izzard in a queue for the womens toilets, we see the man. Just like when we see a man on a stage debating, or hear a man on a phone in.

TRA have to argue in print or on forums because thats the only place trans ideology can make sense. Everywhere else the truth is revealed.

‘Rings William Hill’
”Hi what odds will you give me on Alpha calling up KJK on Terf Talk Tuesday for a debate?”
William Hill - “Just checked and it’s the same odds as it snowing in Hell on Saturday August 17th, at 13.05”

Nobody gives a shiny shit who you are.

I think if Alph wants a debate (or just to bring up a single issue, to discuss) he should definitely ring up KJK on a Tuesday. Yes, she is blunt but not rude generally and a conversation could be had.

He had better prepare himself to put forward a strong argument however.

That is the clincher. Can Alph offer a better position than Fred did with his talk of fucking men in clubs or whatever drunken mind wave he was surfing during the Joyce debate? I mean, it shouldn't be that hard considering.

But still. Women are adult human females, so there's that.

A timely and well articulated reminder, thank you @Girlontherailreplacementbusservice.

Really, this is a perfect shibboleth for this situation. Never has Alphaman given us a better indication of what he actually is than this quote:

"I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men."

Looking forward to tuning in on Tuesday.

He would be like a dog that caught a car.

I’m sure nobody here means me harm, but I am concerned about what others might do given the difficult nature of this debate.

Im also conscious that I have been frank about my inner life and certain core beliefs that I hold. I did not do this to offend anyone but to help illustrate, as best I could, what it is like to suffer from severe gender dysphoria.

My aim here is to increase understanding of trans people as a starting point for building consensus around our relationship with feminists and wider society.

What ‘trans rights’ are you fighting for, out of interest? This is to the ‘trans rights activist’ earlier

I'm pretty sure the starting point should be trans people need to understand women.

Well Alph, you certainly made it very clear that a Man with gender Dysphoria and a Woman are nothing alike!

Oh for gods sake Here we centring a man , on a thread about a brilliant woman.
I went to a let woman speak event in the summer. It was lovely. Lots of nice women there, some still in the ‘be kind’ state of mind.

Some fully on board with women’s rights.

I got some leaflets that were being handed out, I wish I had some more, I left them in my duty free magazine in my holiday flight.
as with everything KJK says they were brusk and to the point, but they weren’t insulting.
Unfortunately mumsnet is a business so presume they have to be careful about the content they host.
Although mumsnet is fabulous for letting women speak to each other

This is very true. Every post is an education in how deeply entrenched and entwined gender is to stereotypes for some of these male people.

Yes, whatever gender dysphoria is, it has nothing in common with being the sex someone identifies with, at least going on the description we have been given by Alpha.

I knew a transwoman through another website, who announced they were transitioning with the expression “I’ve never been very good at being a man…” which seems to chime with what Aloha says.

But not being very good at being a man (however someone feels that is) DOES NOT mean they are automatically a woman (and I suspect the same applies to transmen.)

It’s ok to not live up to stereotypes- most of us don’t. How this ties in with changing the body- and what reasons people have for altering their physical appearance I don’t know, but it’s certainly nothing like growing up female 🤷‍♀️

Im also conscious that I have been frank about my inner life and certain core beliefs that I hold. I did not do this to offend anyone but to help illustrate, as best I could, what it is like to suffer from severe gender dysphoria

Without wishing to be rude, I don't think you have gender dysphoria. Certainly not in the way I would consider it.

Your wish to be submissive, and the obvious enjoyment of promoting detrimental feminine stereotypes, does not indicate any kind of dysphoria to me.

Just my opinion, of course.

I suspect that most readers and posters now fully understand that we are presented with a male poster who really is the type of male that they sought to deny they are. There is nothing nuanced about it. It is full on and blatant by now.

And Kellie Jay would call it out bluntly. However, I suspect that humiliation is the desirable outcome for some people.

I concur! That's all I say as I don't fancy getting told off twice in as many days by mnhq!

I've never been "very good at being a woman" if that means liking pink, relishing housework, being submissive and the rest of the stereotypes wheeled out by Alpha. But I am a woman.

I think KJK really gets peoples goat because she is "good at being a woman" in the hair, clothes and make-up sense but she is very bad at the 'be kind' bit. It's much easier to dismiss grey haired, unmade up, comfy trouser wearing women because hey they aren't real women. Kellie can't be dismissed as a bitter old hag that can't get laid.

What happened to [and I quote]

'Her vs me.

Any debating rules acceptable if equally applied. Any questions accepted. Free speech within the rule of law.

Shall we do this?

So full of shite mate.

Nrtft, but Alf keeps popping up in various threads. Obviously getting something from it. I don't like to think what though.

Should definitely call KJK's show 🍿

If you only understood me you'd do what I say.

There is no line going here that Cakelady hasn't blogged about for years.

I think KJK really gets peoples goat because she is "good at being a woman" in the hair, clothes and make-up sense but she is very bad at the 'be kind' bit. It's much easier to dismiss grey haired, unmade up, comfy trouser wearing women because hey they aren't real women. Kellie can't be dismissed as a bitter old hag that can't get laid.

Exactly this. I've said it before and I'll say it again, she reaches many women who may not realise what has been happening and speaks plainly about the issues. I think she's great.

As for Alpha, I personally don't need to be educated about someone being Trans. It's not your transness I'm bothered about. It's your maleness.

Once people start peaking, it only goes in one direction.

One downside of of a KJK-type bluntness is that it may require a critical mass of people to already be past a certain point of peaking for it to be "palatable" at scale. Otherwise it risks coming across as heartless and insensitive, just like (the equally brilliant) Glinner can and unfortunately does at times. So many people know someone who is trans identifying now, or who is struggling with what gender identity means to them. Most people are kind and most people are still largely ignorant of the impact that gender identity belief is currently having in society, bar perhaps women's sport and the apparent "edge case" of Isla Bryson - that's part of the reason why Be Kind has been so successful - and it's a very British cultural trait for the underdog to be championed or defended. Anyone who is perceived to be vulnerable, who is on the receiving end of a KJK-style retort about gender identity, may well come across as being defacto "in the right" as far as majority public sympathy is concerned. A bit like Caster Semenya still does in the general public discourse.

One of the things I have enjoyed most about the FWR board in the last few days is two threads that I've been on where a self-described TRA has been actively engaged. In the year that I've been here, the nearest I've had to experiencing that previously is a poster who joined in the 3 "good faith" posts about 6 months ago but was an ally rather than a trans person. (Interestingly, by the end of the third thread in that series, this person seemed to possibly be on the start of their own peaking journey).

Alpha, I'm glad you've been actively joining in recently. I've also been (and remain) happy to take your gender dysphoria at face value. It's been great to see you stating that children are at risk from harm (in the "middle ground" thread) because they are being pulled in to believe that their bodies need "fixing". I hear similar from Debbie Hayton and Blaire White and I'm also really glad that they flag this, as they lend an important angle in helping to raise awareness of the dangers that children are facing. It's also been great to see you share thoughts around how third spaces might work and agreeing that it was important to keep Málaga Airport types out of women's spaces....

However....

As the next debate-style thread unfolded (the Helen Joyce live debate thread), it became increasingly clear that, the empathy didn't flow both ways. Yes, benefit of the doubt because of your self-stated neurodiversity can be extended to a point but the failure to acknowledge the irony of the distress that is caused by transwomen in women's spaces compared to the way you describe your own distress at the idea of being unable to enter the men's was held up in lights. One poster shared their traumatic experience of being sexually assaulted as a teen by a transwoman in the ladies', others shared about distress that their loved ones had in relation to men/transwomen and women's spaces. At no point did you truly acknowledge how they felt. Like many people who read that thread, I am also wondering how your transition affected your wife. I don't need the details about your personal relationship but there was never any true acknowledgement that continuing to use women's spaces where there were no alternatives was at least even as distressing for women as potentially your own distress. We got close-ish but never quite there. It was remarkably similar to how Debbie Hayton has moved the line on this point in Debbie's own favour. Additionally, you used the word "submissive" to describe yourself several times, which was... interesting.

So back to this thread and KJK...

I note the gauntlet that @AlphaTransWoman has thrown down in this thread:

As a trans rights activist, I would be delighted for her to have as much airtime as possible. The more people hear her express her views, the better.

I love freedom of speech. It makes it a lot easier for people to figure out who the bad guys are.

Forgive my cynicism but I see no other possible motive here than game play.
I'm happy to hear an alternative explanation.
Yes, Alpha, I think you would get a full-on double-barrel onslaught from KJK if you debated her. Yes, if you played it right (I'd suggest fewer uses of the word "submissive" this time FYI.. that tends to raise flags that are barely less subtle than a poor choice of clothing in an IEA debate), you'd have some great footage to show just what a "meanie" she was in response to your dysphoria. Would that "prove" that she's one of the bad guys and you're one of the good?

Debate is always better than no debate. But equally, the "gentler voices" that hover towards the middle ground discussions still have their lines. And as many posters point out, most hard-line women have started off from a Be Kind angle. Just like KJK from the footage I linked in higher up the thread. The directness came from not being heard and from pushing back against manipulation and weasel words.

KJK remains a valuable voice in this whole arena. I still remain "in the middle" when it comes to engaging in discussion and I still remain sympathetic to anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. I don't believe in gender identity, that we have an innate gender that is separate from our sexed bodies, but I understand that some people do and that the distress that they feel is real. However, I remain grateful to women like KJK, and the strong voices on this board, that the line of NO is being held. Bluntly if necessary (but preferably not bluntly telling me I'm part of the problem with my "middle ground" engagement 😁).