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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Villagetoraiseachild · 02/11/2023 17:11

Bumping.

ampletime · 02/11/2023 17:13

Thank you. This needs to be on regular television

mzdemeanour · 02/11/2023 17:20

Wow - that is heart-rending. Thanks for posting the link. My heart bleeds for those poor misled and gaslit children and I am so angry a the manipulation and utter dereliction of duty of those who allowed/encouraged what happened to them.

exerciseviligance · 02/11/2023 18:18

Just watched, very powerful. This should be on mainstream tv.

Pleasegivemeyourwisdom · 02/11/2023 18:47

Powerful

MavisMcMinty · 02/11/2023 18:48

Excellent, scary film. Half an hour’s “consultation” and BAM! On the path to transition. I am so glad that Daisy was able to have a baby after 5 years on testosterone!

WitchyWitcherson · 02/11/2023 21:00

So sad 😞

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

nauticant · 03/11/2023 11:34

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

If the resistance in the UK against trans activism hadn't been so effective, so much so that the UK has been named TERF Island in trans activist circles, I have little doubt we would have ended up with the same excesses here. What we got was bad enough.

I was going to skip responding to your crass comment but in the end thought it would be worth doing.

AlisonDonut · 03/11/2023 13:37

If 'we,' are being conned then the documentary will all be full of fake people pretending.

Which is the very fundamental basis of the actual ideology.

How odd.

Uooobee · 03/11/2023 17:01

PragerU are a great channel, heard about them from Nigel Farage and took a look at their content. Loved them ever since…

Datun · 03/11/2023 17:23

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

The only way people are being conned, is if you think all these de-transitioners are lying, Mishy. What an unpleasant place to be for you.

Although, to be fair, it's the only defence transactivists are capable of - that's not true, that didn't happen, stop lookingggg!!!

Nope.

FedUpAndTired33 · 03/11/2023 17:40

Although, to be fair, it's the only defence transactivists are capable of - that's not true, that didn't happen, stop lookingggg!!!

This x 100.
Thank you, Datun.

Spermscarecrow · 03/11/2023 17:55

Wow , well that was truly upsetting .

" Transitioning was the closest I could get to killing myself without actually doing it "

That is the most heart wrenching thing I've ever heard .
I hate this ideology and what it is doing to our children and vulnerable people.

WitchyWitcherson · 03/11/2023 17:56

I'm sure lots of right wingers are anti paedophilia and anti murder, does that mean we should disagree with them on those points just because they're right wingers?

stripybluesocks · 03/11/2023 18:02

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

I so wish this small minority really was one I hardly ever ran into, rather than one that dominates the top places in my sport, dominates the direction and politics of my LGB community and attempts to make me teach scientific untruths as a science teacher, and quite regularly threatens and insults me.

That would be so nice! If I hardly ever ran into them!

mzdemeanour · 03/11/2023 18:35

See, as a former journalist, I'd like the PP to answer the fundamental questions I was taught in my training needed to be answered:

What are we being conned about?
Why?
Who's doing the conning? And with what purpose?
How are we being conned?

Answers on a postcard or even the back of a postage stamp ...

PermanentTemporary · 03/11/2023 18:41

Well yes...

Of course I care. We are asked to care Trans rights such as the right to evidence-based healthcare are important. Regret rates are quoted between 1% and 25% with a cluster around 6%, but of course just saying 'regret' means little if you don't say what you might be regretting.

As for a small minority... I married a demister, I have 2 cousins who have transitioned surgically (one male one female), 3 other local friends who have transitioned in some form (all young women) and a friend's spouse has transitioned (male). I worked for a short period with trans people providing a specialist therapy. Like most of the working population, I have more and more colleagues giving their pronouns in their signatures. In the past I competed in a women's power sport event with a few places every year, one of which was taken by a male a few years ago in secret. I will decide when I am allowed to care about something, thanks.

PermanentTemporary · 03/11/2023 18:42

Desister not demister!

Boomboom22 · 03/11/2023 18:48

Does mishy not understand that everyone thinks their beliefs are right. Even the far right wingers aren't doing it to hurt people, they genuinely think eg abortion is a sin, they do believe marriage is good for children. They are not trying to be evil. This weird narrative of extreme marginalisation which just never happened is straight out of the left playbook
It's the left that has manipulated almost all our institutions into encouraging harm. As it usually is tbf since Foucoult.

HagoftheNorth · 03/11/2023 20:14

Mishy, are you seriously suggesting there are no detransitioners in the UK? That’s clearly not true (Kiera Bell, Ritchie Herron?).

Also, your statistic for the number of detransitioners is clearly flawed, since one of the reasons that GIDS was closed was because of their shockingly bad record-keeping and follow-up protocols. There is no data, because they didn’t collect any.

The film is heartbreaking, and it says something that there are people who don’t see that

Helleofabore · 03/11/2023 20:54

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

Reader's Note:

The 'regret' rate of transition is NOT around 1 %. This poster likes to repeat this bit of misinformation on every thread they can and will continue to deny ever seeing any evidence posted that counters that.

The regret rate may be much much higher between 26-30%. Remember that 'regret' rate is actually different from the detransition rate. Some trans people cannot 'detransition' because they have had genital surgery.

The detransition rate is also much higher than 1 %. There are studies starting the detransition rate at 8.3%. And that is from BEFORE affirming only care was insisted upon AND the exponential increase of the current numbers of children and adolescents which also coincides with the clear change to the majority of female children and adolescent patients being seen in the children and adolescent gender clinics around the world.

This poster has been on this board for years and has seen these links. They are determined however to not read the studies, they repeat the dangerous misinformation. Plus they have never once posted evidence to support even that number.

This poster also declares that they are a trans ally, yet, there is no care shown in their posts which continue to post misinformation on many topics about child and adolescent gender services. Their aim seems to be only to scold readers and posters who disagree with them.

For further information, please see the following links:

This is a review of US Military health insurance records for transition persistence.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

”Continuation of Gender-affirming Hormones Among Transgender Adolescents and Adults”

Christina M Roberts,
David A Klein, Terry A Adirim,
Natasha A Schvey, Elizabeth Hisle-Gorman

22 April 2022

Results
The study sample included 627 transmasculine and 325 transfeminine individuals with an average age of 19.2 ± 5.3 years. The 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% (95% CI, 63.9-76.5). Transfeminine individuals had a higher continuation rate than transmasculine individuals 81.0% (72.0%-90.0%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). People who started hormones as minors had higher continuation rate than people who started as adults 74.4% (66.0%-82.8%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). Continuation was not associated with household income or family member type. In Cox regression, both transmasculine gender identity (hazard ratio, 2.40; 95% CI, 1.50-3.86) and starting hormones as an adult (hazard ratio, 1.69; 95% CI, 1.14-2.52) were independently associated with increased discontinuation rates.

Note here the discontinuation rate of people who started hormones was minors was only 25%.

Here is another study showing desistance rates:

Distress: A Prospective Follow-Up Study

by Joseph Elkadi, Catherine Chudleigh, Ann M. Maguire, Geoffrey R. Ambler, Stephen Scher and Kasia Kozlowska

www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/10/2/314

This prospective case-cohort study examines the developmental pathway choices of 79 young people (13.25–23.75 years old; 33 biological males and 46 biological females) referred to a tertiary care hospital’s Department of Psychological Medicine (December 2013–November 2018, at ages 8.42–15.92 years) for diagnostic assessment for gender dysphoria (GD) and for potential gender-affirming medical interventions. All of the young people had attended a screening medical assessment (including puberty staging) by paediatricians. The Psychological Medicine assessment (individual and family) yielded a formal DSM-5 diagnosis of GD in 66 of the young people. Of the 13 not meeting DSM-5 criteria, two obtained a GD diagnosis at a later time. This yielded 68 young people (68/79; 86.1%) with formal diagnoses of GD who were potentially eligible for gender-affirming medical interventions and 11 young people (11/79; 13.9%) who were not. Follow-up took place between November 2022 and January 2023. Within the GD subgroup (n = 68) (with two lost to follow-up), six had desisted (desistance rate of 9.1%; 6/66), and 60 had persisted on a GD (transgender) pathway (persistence rate of 90.9%; 60/66). Within the cohort as a whole (with two lost to follow-up), the overall persistence rate was 77.9% (60/77), and overall desistance rate for gender-related distress was 22.1% (17/77). Ongoing mental health concerns were reported by 44/50 (88.0%), and educational/occupational outcomes varied widely. The study highlights the importance of careful screening, comprehensive biopsychosocial (including family) assessment, and holistic therapeutic support. Even in highly screened samples of children and adolescents seeking a GD diagnosis and gender-affirming medical care, outcome pathways follow a diverse range of possibilities.

Conclusions

The data from this study show that when young people with gender distress present to health services seeking medical interventions, they end up following a diverse range of developmental pathways. The availability of gender-affirming medical interventions for the treatment of gender dysphoria is a recent one, evolving from the work of clinicians in the Netherlands. Early studies have suggested that medical interventions were associated with positive outcomes. This early body of work consequently served as the foundation for subsequent treatment guidelines and became established in medical systems via streamlined assessment processes and treatment pathways. The concept of medical affirmation was embedded in the broader culture by media and internet channels.

Together, these processes gave young people with gender-related distress a clear message: “This is the best way to proceed,” and “The medical affirmation pathway will take away your gender dysphoria.” For many young people and their families, however, these messages favouring medical interventions, coupled with professionals’ affirmation of this pathway, potentially displaced their consideration of other options or other pathways.

The young people and families who presented to our service typically came to us with settled ideas concerning their prospective treatment pathways. In particular, based on what was known at the time, and given the severity of the young persons’ distress, they and their families considered medical treatment for gender dysphoria to be the single best option. In the last five years, however, the gender-affirming medical model has been questioned by both clinicians (who have highlighted the current lack of a solid evidence base and detransitioners (who have highlighted the potential for adverse outcomes). The current evidence suggests the need for a much more nuanced and complex approach. As research data pertaining to long-term outcomes continues to accumulate, “the best way to proceed” is likely to be seen as ranging over a much more diverse range of treatment options and pathways, with each supported by a stronger evidence base than is currently available.

And another couple

Here is a new study on a small sample of trans patients and the standard of care.

www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

A few things stand out.
-the number of patients with underlying mental health issues. And how they are being completely let down by affirming only treatment.

-The number of visits before receiving hormones was 2.7 appointments.

-67 patients average age 27.8 years -range was 12- 54
-42 females, 22 males, four NB (3 f / 1 m)
-Female mean age is 18 years, male 23 years.
-Out of the 67, only 9 (13%) had NO mental health diagnosis. 10 (15%) had diagnosed ASD, 4 with ADHD (6%), 3 (4%) with OCD, 1 with Bipolar, 7 (10%) with a Personality Disorder. 13 (19%) had documented childhood abuse, neglect or violence.

The rate of detransition amongst those who had received at least hormones was 9.8%. This is in line with the European study below which showed a long term detransition rate of medicalised transitioners of males 8.8% and females 8.3%.

From this study

Nine patients had stopped hormone therapy; one related to practice policy because they had not attended any GIC follow-up (the patient has restarted since the audit). Thus, eight patients had stopped hormones voluntarily (20% stopping rate; six trans men, two trans women).

This is the other study with the figures 8.8% & 8.3%:

//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

And these recent articles from gender clinicians .

‘Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’
https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

From Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finnish Psychiatrist who developed the treatment plans for Finnish Gender Clinics.

and

Here is Dr Az Hazeem, another psychiatrist from the UK Gender clinics, saying he had about 26% of his patients regretted transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

He said 26 per cent of his patients at the Tavistock and Portman regretted transitioning.

Note: Dr Az states this is patient 'regret' not detransition.

Final note: This poster, mishy, has just recently denounced Dr Kaltiala's article because Mishy feels that the media source is not trustworthy. However, this is an article from the Dr, herself. And Mishy, as usual, failed completely to address one single thing that this chief Psychiatrist had to say....

Almost.. almost like it is determined ignorance by this stage or so it appears.

Age at initiation of gender-affirming hormones by sex assigned at birth.

Continuation of Gender-affirming Hormones Among Transgender Adolescents and Adults

AbstractIntroduction. Concerns about future regret and treatment discontinuation have led to restricted access to gender-affirming medical treatment for transge

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

Helleofabore · 03/11/2023 20:57

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

Mishy.

You have continued to post your completely unsupported misinformation on this thread as well now. That is how many just this week.

Every time you post that statistic of 1%, I will post this reader's note so that those reading your posts will understand that you have nothing. Absolutely nothing to back it up. But, feel free to keep posting it. Because every single time that you do, readers will get access to several studies and papers that show your misinformation for what it is. Dangerous and uncaring of children and adolescent health outcomes.

Thanks for encouraging us to make sure people have the information to hand though. Great job.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2023 21:10

‘Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’
https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

From Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finnish Psychiatrist who developed the treatment plans for Finnish Gender Clinics.

By the way, This article contains links to studies to back up her statements..... unlike Mishy's misinformation....

‘Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’

My country, and others, found there is no solid evidence supporting the medical transitioning of young people. Why aren’t American clinicians paying attention?

https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

MavisMcMinty · 03/11/2023 21:13

I wonder how many regretful detransitioners it would take for Mishy et al to feel concern about the medical safeguarding of vulnerable children and teenagers?

Would it be similar to the figure of “100 women each year” who’d have to be assaulted in women’s toilets before another trans rights scolder on these boards would deem TW in women’s single-sex spaces a problem?