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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
PTSDBarbiegirl · 03/11/2023 21:33

MishyJDI · 03/11/2023 11:05

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

These stories are sad nonetheless. Cannot happen in the UK.

But you dont stop options for adults 18 or > on other surgeries with higher regret rates (eg breast enhancement) for the few who do regret. Informed, consent and competency are requirements, including Gillick for teenagers, who even with that can only access puberty blockers for a short period of time - if indeed that can at all.

Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

There is a growing body of evidence in the UK supplied by the accounts and testimony of the victims of gender affirming medicine, Tavistock in England and Scotland. It is absolutely heart rendering. Some are now castrated males who had inverted penis OP and hormones, only to discover they were left mutilated, in chronic pain, with bone problems and a host of mental health difficulties, self harm is prevalent. It's interesting to note these males who detransitioned eventually felt able to come out as the gay men they are and always were. Homophobia is rife in the UK and the message sent is a trans child is more acceptable than a gay child. It has to stop.

Boomboom22 · 03/11/2023 22:03

It is very very odd to have been shown the evidence and yet not change your view from a safeguarding perspective. Obviously willful buy why? In this case they can't believe they are right, I really feel these people are actually sinister not just misguided like maybe some right wing views on gender are.

Datun · 04/11/2023 00:31

HagoftheNorth · 03/11/2023 20:14

Mishy, are you seriously suggesting there are no detransitioners in the UK? That’s clearly not true (Kiera Bell, Ritchie Herron?).

Also, your statistic for the number of detransitioners is clearly flawed, since one of the reasons that GIDS was closed was because of their shockingly bad record-keeping and follow-up protocols. There is no data, because they didn’t collect any.

The film is heartbreaking, and it says something that there are people who don’t see that

The film is heartbreaking, and it says something that there are people who don’t see that

Oh, mishy sees it all right. They just don't want you to see it.

FannyCann · 04/11/2023 05:55

Ritchie discusses detransition with another young man who he met in hospital as they both had SRS surgery on the same day with the same surgeon. When they met again five years later both had detransitioned.

Fancy that. What are the chances eh?

I had never heard of Jason before. The two have a frank and in depth conversation about their surgery, why they had it and their lives now.

The malpractice is off the scale, it's devastating to listen to.

Jason is incredibly articulate and insightful and has some good advice for Ritchie. His optimistic outlook and the way he has turned his life around is truly amazing as life has treated him so badly from his early years, but of course no one asked him about that when discussing gender reassignment surgery...

FannyCann · 04/11/2023 05:59

Fortunately no minor surgeries are allowed in the UK, so not relevant.

Not sure if Mishy thinks the surgery is minor or if Mishy means surgeries on minors.

Unfortunately those with a range of mental health problems will still get sucked in in their late teens and early twenties as Jason and Ritchie did, the magic age of 18 doesn't seem much protection from MAJOR surgery.

FannyCann · 04/11/2023 06:08

Oh and a third case for Mishy.
Jason's soon to be wife is also a detransitioner. Imagine the odds!!

Jason talks about wanting children, something he and his wife are making plans for. I hope his wife still has the capacity to have children with donor sperm (as obviously Jason will not be able to supply, if he had sperm storage before surgery he didn't mention it and I doubt he has).

As many posters will know I am deeply opposed to surrogacy but listening to Jason and Ritchie could make me sympathetic. Alas there are going to be a lot of Jasons and Ritchies and I don't think wholescale supplies of willing breeders is the answer to the problem. Just creating many more problems from the disaster of gender ideology.

Pinkflamingopants · 04/11/2023 06:09

Intrigued to know how right wing views = a con? These days they represent lots of people who don’t align with the far lefts child castration and globalist agenda pushing narrative.

334bu · 04/11/2023 06:56

"Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes."

It is not GC feminists telling children that , if they don't confirm to the patriarchy's gender and sex stereotypes, they should remove parts of their bodies and take drugs to stunt their development.

OldCrone · 04/11/2023 08:03

334bu · 04/11/2023 06:56

"Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes."

It is not GC feminists telling children that , if they don't confirm to the patriarchy's gender and sex stereotypes, they should remove parts of their bodies and take drugs to stunt their development.

I was a bit confused by that comment by Mishy. Surely after all the time they've spent on here scolding us about our wrongthink, they can't possibly think that we're in favour of reinforcing regressive stereotypes. And as an apologist for gender ideology they must also know that it's genderists who love the stereotyping.

Try reading more and scolding less, Mishy. If you're anti stereotyping, you've got more in common with us than you think.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2023 08:58

”Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

“Better hobbies and campaign options to advance feminism are available, then reinforcing patriarchal gender and sex stereotypes.

How bizarre. And utterly devoid of self awareness and logic.

In one statement scolding and shaming for having an interest in the welfare of children on a feminist board on… wait for it… MUMSNET, no less! And in the next sentence talking about feminism.

Ahh. Doh! The collectivism part of feminism has missed you by, has it Mishy? Or are you too intent on the real motive of misogynistically scolding women to understand despite being on this board for years now.

Feminism is women working together for the best outcomes of all female people. Oh gosh… that also includes girls too! Also because many of us are mothers, we care about all children and keeping them safe and healthy too. But don’t let anything like the truth dampen your spirits, Mishy. You might land a point in the box of relevant and true facts soon.

”Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Why do we care? Well some posters on this board have children and adolescents who are impacted by the issues we discuss here. Others are feminists and this is a major issue concerning feminists because…. that is right … children and particularly girls.

Question is Mishy, why don’t you care enough to actually get informed? Or are you so bereft of maturity and critical thinking ability you can’t read anything outside a prescribed narrow range of material so you can remain in your purity spiral?

Thought for the weekend....on and who is that behind the video? Yep....its the usual right wingers. You are being conned....

Thought for the weekend (for Mishy) …. Provide evidence for your repeated 1% misinformation.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2023 08:59

”Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

So Mishy, do YOU have a trans ‘kid’?

SaffronSpice · 04/11/2023 09:01

Evidence of transition regrets continue to be around 1%, and a large proportion of those who do detransition revisit it to find their happy place.

There is no evidence that detransition is around 1%, even for adults which is only group ever studied post surgery/hormonal treatment. At best we can say that 1% of adults who used a specific transitioning clinic returned to the clinic, that they felt sent them the wrong way/caused them harm, to tell them/seek help detransitioning. Loss to followup in all studies was very high meaning potentionally up to 40% detransitioning in the study would have gone unrecorded.

As for transitioning being a ‘happy place’; transitioning dramatically increases suicide rate.

In terms of children, we know that 80 to 95% of children seen at clinic pre puberty will come to terms with their sex following puberty with watchful waiting. In other words, without hormonal treatment to lock them into the pathway there is an 80 to 95% ‘detransition’ rate.

SinnerBoy · 04/11/2023 09:02

Didn't Mishy say that they are trans? Apologies if I'm wrong and it's another poster.

SaffronSpice · 04/11/2023 09:27

Helleofabore · 03/11/2023 20:54

Reader's Note:

The 'regret' rate of transition is NOT around 1 %. This poster likes to repeat this bit of misinformation on every thread they can and will continue to deny ever seeing any evidence posted that counters that.

The regret rate may be much much higher between 26-30%. Remember that 'regret' rate is actually different from the detransition rate. Some trans people cannot 'detransition' because they have had genital surgery.

The detransition rate is also much higher than 1 %. There are studies starting the detransition rate at 8.3%. And that is from BEFORE affirming only care was insisted upon AND the exponential increase of the current numbers of children and adolescents which also coincides with the clear change to the majority of female children and adolescent patients being seen in the children and adolescent gender clinics around the world.

This poster has been on this board for years and has seen these links. They are determined however to not read the studies, they repeat the dangerous misinformation. Plus they have never once posted evidence to support even that number.

This poster also declares that they are a trans ally, yet, there is no care shown in their posts which continue to post misinformation on many topics about child and adolescent gender services. Their aim seems to be only to scold readers and posters who disagree with them.

For further information, please see the following links:

This is a review of US Military health insurance records for transition persistence.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

”Continuation of Gender-affirming Hormones Among Transgender Adolescents and Adults”

Christina M Roberts,
David A Klein, Terry A Adirim,
Natasha A Schvey, Elizabeth Hisle-Gorman

22 April 2022

Results
The study sample included 627 transmasculine and 325 transfeminine individuals with an average age of 19.2 ± 5.3 years. The 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% (95% CI, 63.9-76.5). Transfeminine individuals had a higher continuation rate than transmasculine individuals 81.0% (72.0%-90.0%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). People who started hormones as minors had higher continuation rate than people who started as adults 74.4% (66.0%-82.8%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). Continuation was not associated with household income or family member type. In Cox regression, both transmasculine gender identity (hazard ratio, 2.40; 95% CI, 1.50-3.86) and starting hormones as an adult (hazard ratio, 1.69; 95% CI, 1.14-2.52) were independently associated with increased discontinuation rates.

Note here the discontinuation rate of people who started hormones was minors was only 25%.

Here is another study showing desistance rates:

Distress: A Prospective Follow-Up Study

by Joseph Elkadi, Catherine Chudleigh, Ann M. Maguire, Geoffrey R. Ambler, Stephen Scher and Kasia Kozlowska

www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/10/2/314

This prospective case-cohort study examines the developmental pathway choices of 79 young people (13.25–23.75 years old; 33 biological males and 46 biological females) referred to a tertiary care hospital’s Department of Psychological Medicine (December 2013–November 2018, at ages 8.42–15.92 years) for diagnostic assessment for gender dysphoria (GD) and for potential gender-affirming medical interventions. All of the young people had attended a screening medical assessment (including puberty staging) by paediatricians. The Psychological Medicine assessment (individual and family) yielded a formal DSM-5 diagnosis of GD in 66 of the young people. Of the 13 not meeting DSM-5 criteria, two obtained a GD diagnosis at a later time. This yielded 68 young people (68/79; 86.1%) with formal diagnoses of GD who were potentially eligible for gender-affirming medical interventions and 11 young people (11/79; 13.9%) who were not. Follow-up took place between November 2022 and January 2023. Within the GD subgroup (n = 68) (with two lost to follow-up), six had desisted (desistance rate of 9.1%; 6/66), and 60 had persisted on a GD (transgender) pathway (persistence rate of 90.9%; 60/66). Within the cohort as a whole (with two lost to follow-up), the overall persistence rate was 77.9% (60/77), and overall desistance rate for gender-related distress was 22.1% (17/77). Ongoing mental health concerns were reported by 44/50 (88.0%), and educational/occupational outcomes varied widely. The study highlights the importance of careful screening, comprehensive biopsychosocial (including family) assessment, and holistic therapeutic support. Even in highly screened samples of children and adolescents seeking a GD diagnosis and gender-affirming medical care, outcome pathways follow a diverse range of possibilities.

Conclusions

The data from this study show that when young people with gender distress present to health services seeking medical interventions, they end up following a diverse range of developmental pathways. The availability of gender-affirming medical interventions for the treatment of gender dysphoria is a recent one, evolving from the work of clinicians in the Netherlands. Early studies have suggested that medical interventions were associated with positive outcomes. This early body of work consequently served as the foundation for subsequent treatment guidelines and became established in medical systems via streamlined assessment processes and treatment pathways. The concept of medical affirmation was embedded in the broader culture by media and internet channels.

Together, these processes gave young people with gender-related distress a clear message: “This is the best way to proceed,” and “The medical affirmation pathway will take away your gender dysphoria.” For many young people and their families, however, these messages favouring medical interventions, coupled with professionals’ affirmation of this pathway, potentially displaced their consideration of other options or other pathways.

The young people and families who presented to our service typically came to us with settled ideas concerning their prospective treatment pathways. In particular, based on what was known at the time, and given the severity of the young persons’ distress, they and their families considered medical treatment for gender dysphoria to be the single best option. In the last five years, however, the gender-affirming medical model has been questioned by both clinicians (who have highlighted the current lack of a solid evidence base and detransitioners (who have highlighted the potential for adverse outcomes). The current evidence suggests the need for a much more nuanced and complex approach. As research data pertaining to long-term outcomes continues to accumulate, “the best way to proceed” is likely to be seen as ranging over a much more diverse range of treatment options and pathways, with each supported by a stronger evidence base than is currently available.

And another couple

Here is a new study on a small sample of trans patients and the standard of care.

www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

A few things stand out.
-the number of patients with underlying mental health issues. And how they are being completely let down by affirming only treatment.

-The number of visits before receiving hormones was 2.7 appointments.

-67 patients average age 27.8 years -range was 12- 54
-42 females, 22 males, four NB (3 f / 1 m)
-Female mean age is 18 years, male 23 years.
-Out of the 67, only 9 (13%) had NO mental health diagnosis. 10 (15%) had diagnosed ASD, 4 with ADHD (6%), 3 (4%) with OCD, 1 with Bipolar, 7 (10%) with a Personality Disorder. 13 (19%) had documented childhood abuse, neglect or violence.

The rate of detransition amongst those who had received at least hormones was 9.8%. This is in line with the European study below which showed a long term detransition rate of medicalised transitioners of males 8.8% and females 8.3%.

From this study

Nine patients had stopped hormone therapy; one related to practice policy because they had not attended any GIC follow-up (the patient has restarted since the audit). Thus, eight patients had stopped hormones voluntarily (20% stopping rate; six trans men, two trans women).

This is the other study with the figures 8.8% & 8.3%:

//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

And these recent articles from gender clinicians .

‘Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’
https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

From Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finnish Psychiatrist who developed the treatment plans for Finnish Gender Clinics.

and

Here is Dr Az Hazeem, another psychiatrist from the UK Gender clinics, saying he had about 26% of his patients regretted transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

He said 26 per cent of his patients at the Tavistock and Portman regretted transitioning.

Note: Dr Az states this is patient 'regret' not detransition.

Final note: This poster, mishy, has just recently denounced Dr Kaltiala's article because Mishy feels that the media source is not trustworthy. However, this is an article from the Dr, herself. And Mishy, as usual, failed completely to address one single thing that this chief Psychiatrist had to say....

Almost.. almost like it is determined ignorance by this stage or so it appears.

I should have RTFT. This is an excellent post and shows evidence is accumulating more than I realised about the much higher detransitioning rate including in children. However, it still strikes me in the studies Helleofabore quotes, how short the followup often is; eg four year followup in minors who are still minors at the end of the study.

Datun · 04/11/2023 09:32

”Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Such a revealing statement, really.

If one is an advocate for a certain set of people, because of what they have in common and how it affects them, how often would you accusingly tell other people, who are also trying to help, why are you interested in helping, why does it affect you?

Mishy is opposed to the women on this thread helping, or even being interested in these children.

Which, although unsurprisingly, is just another example of the slyness of transactivism.

SaffronSpice · 04/11/2023 09:43

As many posters will know I am deeply opposed to surrogacy but listening to Jason and Ritchie could make me sympathetic. Alas there are going to be a lot of Jasons and Ritchies and I don't think wholescale supplies of willing breeders is the answer to the problem. Just creating many more problems from the disaster of gender ideology.

Surrogacy is the exploitation of women and babies and turning humans into commodities to be bought and sold. Your description of exploited women as breeders is offensive and misogynistic. Women are not a resource to be exploited by men to make them feel better, regardless of their sadness of poor treatment. You are just doing what gender ideology has done all along - treated women as a resource for men to exploit.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2023 10:13

Datun · 04/11/2023 09:32

”Unless you have a trans kid yourself, why let it affect you so much, for such a small minority you will hardly ever run into?

Such a revealing statement, really.

If one is an advocate for a certain set of people, because of what they have in common and how it affects them, how often would you accusingly tell other people, who are also trying to help, why are you interested in helping, why does it affect you?

Mishy is opposed to the women on this thread helping, or even being interested in these children.

Which, although unsurprisingly, is just another example of the slyness of transactivism.

You are right Datun about the slyness, that comes through nearly every one of Mishy’s posts. However, it is a glaring example of the disconnected thinking.

And I am not just talking about the disconnection with facts that Mishy posts. I think it comes from merely regurgitating things that are read in a bubble because to a mind that is not up for being challenged in any way, it sounds righteous. And the righteous bit is all that poster seems to be motivated by. Oh. And misogyny, whether intended misogyny or just a by product of their lack of understanding.

BonfireLady · 04/11/2023 11:40

Great film.

Incredibly powerful and hopefully lots of people will see it 🤞🤞

@MishyJDI I'm afraid I can't imagine many of those who do will have the same takeaway as you. And as others have said, please stop quoting the "1% regret" fallacy. For anyone on Twitter, this is a great thread which covers 27 studies, debunking the 1% myth completely.

https://twitter.com/somenuancepls/status/1642654109382656002?t=hvxtacWWYyvwi3Q8T8JdbQ&s=19

I did some maths to see what the overall average would look like from what she had done. I removed any retrospective studies (where there was no actual follow-up), any with a sample size <25 people and the 2 studies which used samples from samples. That left 15 studies with a 35.6% average regret.
And obviously none of this accounts for the current cohort. The huge increase in adolescent girls (5000% increase from 2010 according to the Tavistock's own figures) are yet to be accounted for in any meaningful study because of how long it can take for regret to set in. Adolescents who started their journey through social transition and got locked in, like Daisy, won't necessarily be experiencing regret until their adolescent brains have finished developing (aged 25 or so), so we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg coming through now.

Hopefully not a derail but important to call out:

Unfortunately Daisy is getting a lot of stick on Twitter for saying that "everyone should be Catholic" (I'm not sure if those are her actual words or just paraphrased):

https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1720237840200601649?t=p4eObdK_vF_GGGD02hBu4Q&s=19

I say unfortunately because this does play in to the idea of conversion therapy i.e. the belief that people should detransition because having men and women is "god's plan". Notably Ollie London (featured towards the end of the film) found god during his detransition too.

I totally understand that some people are religious and that they find strength in their faith. That's great if it helps them to understand themselves and their mental health. BUT it is never a valid reason to detransition. A belief in gender identity as a truth was the foundation that led to transition in the first place. Anyone who regrets their transition and wants to detransition should be doing so because they now understand themselves better than they did, not because they have replaced one belief's tenets with those of another. Obviously there are many Catholics (and other Christians) who are also gender critical but there are huge numbers of traditionally leaning Christians, particularly in the US, who want to protect sex-based roles.

I really do hope that Daisy detransitioned because she understood herself better. I will extend the benefit of the doubt on that because that's certainly how it comes across in the film. And I also hope that she can detach her reasons for detransitioning from her faith in the public discourse, like she does in the film.

It's been pointed out on other threads that there are 3 main viewpoints on the topic of gender identity:

  1. We all have a gender identity and everyone should be free to express theirs however they want to (e.g. challenge stereotypes that are stereotypically associated with the sex that is registered on a birth certificate.... and grab on to those of the opposite sex instead - or reject all, in the case of non-binary)
  2. We don't all have a gender identity. There are two sexes and everyone should be free to express theirs however they want to (e.g. challenge stereotypes that are stereotypically associated with the sex that is registered on a birth certificate)
  3. We don't all have a gender identity. There are two sexes and there are traditional roles associated with those sexes that should be upheld for society to function.

There are lots of people in buckets 2 and 3. Just because there is likely to be shared agreement here that gender identity belief causes harm and that this film needs to be seen widely, it doesn't mean there is agreement on sex-based roles in society.

Thankfully most people who are in bucket 2 in the UK can see bucket 3 for what it is and can articulate the difference. I'm not convinced it's that clear cut in the US, with the good ol' American values of men and women being hard-coded in to type 3 in schools and the exported TV programmes that we get etc, where the women and girls nurture while the men and boys are sporty and provide for them.

https://twitter.com/somenuancepls/status/1642654109382656002?s=19&t=hvxtacWWYyvwi3Q8T8JdbQ

SaffronSpice · 04/11/2023 12:09

Adolescents who started their journey through social transition and got locked in, like Daisy, won't necessarily be experiencing regret until their adolescent brains have finished developing (aged 25 or so),

If they are on puberty blockers then their brains might ‘finish developing’ but it won’t have matured through adolescence. We’ve yet to really understand the impact of this on those lives.

BonfireLady · 04/11/2023 12:19

SaffronSpice · 04/11/2023 12:09

Adolescents who started their journey through social transition and got locked in, like Daisy, won't necessarily be experiencing regret until their adolescent brains have finished developing (aged 25 or so),

If they are on puberty blockers then their brains might ‘finish developing’ but it won’t have matured through adolescence. We’ve yet to really understand the impact of this on those lives.

Very true.

Jazz Jennings' dad has made comments suggesting that Jazz's declared identity as asexual may be linked to puberty blockers.
Also the NHS says that the impact of puberty blockers on brain development is unknown.

And now of course we've got Stonewall backing a campaign to end "discrimination against asexuality".

Even those of us who aren't medically trained can see that it's highly likely that a brain that doesn't go through puberty won't develop to understand sex and sexual orientation in the way that adults do. All of that emerges during puberty, as a confusing muddle that each of us eventually makes sense of for ourselves... Most likely because of our developing brains. If that development is halted, what then?

Another fallacy that is commonly pushed as a truth is that cross sex hormones lead to puberty of the opposite sex. No they don't. They lead to the development of secondary sex characteristics which look/sound a bit like those of the opposite sex. But that's not puberty.

QueenBitch666 · 04/11/2023 14:33

Powerful. Thanks for sharing. Petition signed

Maaate · 04/11/2023 14:42

I think the religious thing is interesting, trans ideology is often very 'religious' - follow the rules, repeat the phrases and do what you are told.

I've seen it with a lot of addicts but it could also link into other mental health conditions - almost the need to have something 'external' to focus/fixate on and tell you what to do so you don't think about the thing that's actually 'wrong'.

Maaate · 04/11/2023 14:47

Btw I'm in no way saying that religious people have mental health issues, just that the rules and affirmations can be very attractive to people who do.

HagoftheNorth · 04/11/2023 18:06

Thank you Helleofabore, I stand corrected about there being little evidence of detransition numbers! I will read your references, but in the meantime, would it be fair to say studies generally undercount regret because some people feel unable to say so, and (more disturbingly) the not insignificant numbers of suicides are generally not included?

MalagaNights · 04/11/2023 18:17

PragerU has strong faith leanings and promotes many socially conservative values so it's not surprising that the people who've agreed to work with them are religious.

We did see Daisy praying the rosary in the film so her faith was made clear.

People will detransition for many reasons and find meaning in many ways in their lives. If she's religious I'm not sure why that matters...unless she's demanding that everyone says she Hail Mary?!