Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

No, if a woman (whether AFAB or not) only dates cis women and trans women, they are a lesbian. If they only date cis men and trans men, they are straight. Just as you don't have to date AMAB people if you don't want to, you also don't get to tell other lesbians that their self definition isn't valid.

I'm not going to police my friends' stated identities thanks, but if that's how you think people should treat their friends that's up to you I guess.

Bisexual is just the word for people who are attracted to both sexes @suggestionsplease1. It's not about "identity". It's not any sort of personal value judgment. Just the correct term.

Trans women are men they are not a subset of women

No, if a woman (whether AFAB or not) only dates cis women and trans women, they are a lesbian. If they only date cis men and trans men, they are straight. Just as you don't have to date AMAB people if you don't want to, you also don't get to tell other lesbians that their self definition isn't valid.

You're speaking in bizarre in group jargon. There is no such thing as "cis" apart from a self identity label some people choose to give themselves. It's meaningless to the vast majority of the population. "AMAB" just means male because sex is not something that can be changed. All women are female, and none are male.

Bi is people who are attracted to both genders, though some pan people (ie people who are attracted to all genders) sometimes also call them (our) selves bi. A woman (cis or trans) who is only attracted to other women (cis or trans) is a lesbian.

@MargotBamborough as I said originally I talked about the lesbians who go out with transmen. They don’t have an issue with gender ideology.
This doesn’t also have to mean they want to have sex with males.

there is a lot more to gender ideology than transwomen wanting to shag lesbians and win women’s races. Why does anyone else get to decide what that that lesbian meant or feels?

That’s what I’m questioning.

And lesbians are biologically female humans attracted to other biologically female humans. The word for males attracted to women is heterosexual if exclusively, or bisexual if they are attracted to both sexes.

@Ereshkigalangcleg
Some are. Most are very obviously male though, however they dress

I tend to agree although I have met a couple of very convincing (post op) ones. But I don't think I've ever seen a transwoman who dresses stereotypically male?

I made a post on here some time ago about my very masculine in appearance girlfriend and an issue we were having and a lot of people accused me of being with a transwoman-it baffled me but also was quite infuriating as I'd never date a transwoman in a million years (and apparently that makes me a huge bigot).

Not true. They are a subset of women.

You're then telling homosexual people they are not 'valid' though?

Let's face it. The only reason to mess with the words and abandon homosexuality being ok is to maintain the illusion that people have changed sex and can live as the sex they would like to be instead of their reality.

Others are not compelled to join in with the illusion.

Let's have words for people who identify as female/male and therefore as trans gay and trans lesbian and that's fine, but please leave words for those of us who believe in the reality of sex and have a sexual orientation based on it. And stop harassing homosexuals and trying to push that a good homosexual woman does men rather than upset one by not validating him with her body.

Ffs.

Yet another thread of people trying to erase single sex attraction.

Absolutely horrendous that a bunch of heterosexual men think that wearing women's clothes makes them not only women but actually lesbians and some posters don't see the homophobia and misogyny in that position.

@JaneGainsborough You are wrong. Lesbians are same SEX attracted not same gender attracted.

Out of interest, what would you say to the the feminist who is far more radical, comparatively, than most feminists, and believes than transwomen are not women and should not be in women's spaces, when she rejects being called a terf?

Presumably you would tell her, I'm sorry you feel that way, but when we look at your position, this is exactly what you are and you should accept that people will accurately call you a terf as that is a correct description.

So much gender woo there I can't even be arsed to unpick it

Bi is people who are attracted to both genders, though some pan people (ie people who are attracted to all genders)

"Pan" is another meaningless identity label. People are heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual or in some cases asexual meaning that they don't feel sexual attraction at all.

Gender is a social construct based on regressive sex stereotypes.

What does a transwoman have in common with a woman?

Out of interest, what would you say to the the feminist who is far more radical, comparatively, than most feminists, and believes than transwomen are not women and should not be in women's spaces, when she rejects being called a terf?

Believing males should not be considered women or be in women's spaces doesn't make one "trans exclusionary". Women who identify as men are members of our sex and therefore can benefit from feminism.

Femininity.

Define "femininity" in a way that includes all women, those males you consider "trans women" and excludes all other men.

To be fair, they have got some lovely frocks.

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@Catsanfan I agree! Jesus H Christ. No.

Actually I do think there does need to be some gatekeeping, yes.

I'm not saying you personally need to do it.

But people can't just go round redefining words that other people use to refer to themselves and expect everyone else to be OK with it.

If people who have penises, or people who shag people with penises, start calling themselves lesbians, actual lesbians no longer have a word to describe themselves.

If male people, or female people who self describe as "cis women" change the definition of the word "women" to include male people, there is no longer a word that means "female people".

And it doesn't even stop there, because on this very thread we have someone saying that trans women are not male, meaning that even the words male and female have lost all meaning and we no longer have words to describe biological sex in humans. We can identify the different biological sexes in all other animal and plant species, but not in humans, because doing so offends some people.

Do you genuinely not see how this is problematic?

To be fair, they have got some lovely frocks.

More Pan's People!

@JaneGainsborough Thought the oxford dictionary definition would be helpful for you.

Homosexuality is same SEX attraction. Lesbians are same SEX attracted.

Gender identify is irrelevant. Biological sex is what lesbians are attracted to.

It is homophobic to try and redefine someone’s sexuality and claim they should include the opposite sex.