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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butches against transpohobia

804 replies

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 16:09

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

OP posts:
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Justwrong68 · 24/10/2023 19:40

That "you're obsessed with genitals" response if you mention you don't like penis has been a gaslighting cliché for the last few years now.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 19:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 19:36

Out of interest, what would you say to the the feminist who is far more radical, comparatively, than most feminists, and believes than transwomen are not women and should not be in women's spaces, when she rejects being called a terf?

Believing males should not be considered women or be in women's spaces doesn't make one "trans exclusionary". Women who identify as men are members of our sex and therefore can benefit from feminism.

You know as well as I do that the terminology means transwomen exclusionary.

Although to be fair, I have seen people on FWR make the case that women's spaces should be exclusionary of both transmen and women.

bombastix · 24/10/2023 19:40

@Catsanfan - agree!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 19:41

You know as well as I do that the terminology means transwomen exclusionary.

No, I don't subscribe to that viewpoint. Hope that helps.

Justwrong68 · 24/10/2023 19:41

bombastix · 24/10/2023 16:41

Frankly I would be disappointed and would be looking for some sort of claim under the Trade Descriptions Act if it got to the underwear stage and then a cock appeared. I don't think many lesbians would be happy not bisexual women either because both will be seeking biologically female partners. The bisexual woman can find a biological man easily enough.

I concur

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 19:41

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 19:36

Femininity.

What constitutes 'femininity'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 19:42

About those regressive sex stereotypes I mentioned...

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 19:42

Be careful everyone, Big Brother is watching this thread. I've had a post deleted.

It would be good if the person who objected to my comment about the word "queer" could explain what they believe "queer" means and why people who identify as "queer" are not covered by any of the following words:

Heterosexual
Homosexual
Bisexual

OK, for completeness I'll add asexual to the list.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 19:43

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 19:36

Femininity.

Are you suggesting that butch lesbians aren't women??

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 19:44

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 19:43

Are you suggesting that butch lesbians aren't women??

🤔

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 19:45

But I don't think I've ever seen a transwoman who dresses stereotypically male?

I have. But in any case, I was saying that even if they dress in a stereotypically feminine way, their sex is still blindingly obvious in most cases.

bombastix · 24/10/2023 19:45

Well it's a tough world people because David Sedaris came out as straight the other week, because he can't handle queer and what people now say it represents.

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 19:45

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 19:41

What constitutes 'femininity'?

Apparently wearing a skirt and makeup....🙄

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 19:46

Froodwithatowel · 24/10/2023 19:11

'Most people' (survey please) 'go by what's between someone's ears/in their heart and not their genitals' (and other ridiculous batshit.)

No. If you're homosexual, you are attracted to one specific physical sex .

You're welcome to be pan or whatever you want, label yourself away and sleep with whoever you want and will have you. But stop the homophobia please. Some of us are gay. Deal with it.

I had no idea there was a category of people who were entirely attracted to people based on nose type.

What does it break down into - button, Roman, pointy, broken?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 19:47

@ArabellaScott GrinGrin

bombastix · 24/10/2023 19:48

m.youtube.com/watch?v=m54h5LbQ_hU

Justwrong68 · 24/10/2023 19:48

DadJoke · 24/10/2023 17:26

94% of lesbians, a higher than any other group, have a favourable opinion of transgender people. The rest are a tiny GC minority. So why would ths be a surprise?

Is that from the laughable survey that was worded so badly that the questions were all answered wrongly? A cynical and desperate attempt to skew figures.

Sorciere1 · 24/10/2023 19:48

Lesbian here;
don't like cock nor the bodies they were formerly attached too, no matter how much they pretend. They look and act like men. Ugh.
GO AWAY

TheABC · 24/10/2023 19:49

If femininity is what defines a woman, does that mean I can opt out of periods and stretchmarks by wearing my husband's clothes?

Happy days! 😀

Froodwithatowel · 24/10/2023 19:49

There is no reason to go getting things deleted.

Some people have the belief of gender identity. That's fine. They prefer to use pronouns of a person's choice and to go along with the illusion of the person being that sex with a high priority placed on that person not experiencing anything that makes it difficult to maintain this illusion. And I fully understand this.

Some people do not share this belief, and think that sex is real and matters, and there are necessary limits on requiring others to maintain another person's illusion or protect their preferred experience of reality. Particularly when it begins to remove their equality of rights, their access, and becomes a source of harassment and prejudice. Such as that lesbianism is a relationship between two people who choose the word and are of either sex.

That would be fine so long as those wishing to do this, are able to equally respect that some people define themselves as homosexual, see and name sex and wish to be clear about their homosexuality and proud of it. Live and let live is required of the gender movement, some tolerance and some capacity to live alongside people of other beliefs, without trying to forcibly convert or eliminate.

I'll be a homosexual lesbian. You be whatever bi kind of lesbian you want to be and whatever kind of sex you want. We'll both be out and proud, we'll support and live alongside each other, we'll have groups that work for both of us and permit us to have the support and pride that we need. What's wrong with that? Other than that to do this means that the existence of sex is visible and some people find that so distressing that they'd prefer to distress others than tolerate it?

Lesbianactually · 24/10/2023 19:50

Yes to the above!

My gf is no less female because of the way she dresses and wears her hair.

Putting on trousers and a shirt does not make you a man any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

And the same vice versa!

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 19:52

bombastix · 24/10/2023 19:48

Brilliant.

'I'm 65 years old I've been with the same guy for 31 years, and on this day I am announcing to the world that I am straight. I haven't met anyone else, haven't fallen in love with a woman I've simply done fighting the term queer.

What bothers me is not that it used to be a slur, I just don't see why I have to be rebranded for the fourth time in my life I started as a homosexual, became gay, then LGBT, and now queer and for what?

Why the makeovers, and what will it be next?

I read an interview with the woman who identifies as queer because she's tall - that's it. She's never had a relationship with another woman, doesn't care to for all I know, so what does it mean that we're both suddenly queer?'

PorcelinaV · 24/10/2023 19:52

wherethewaterisdarker · 24/10/2023 18:54

What? Why can’t you be against transphobia and also not want to be presented with a penis on a date? Ugh such simplistic, divisive thinking.

I'm assuming the person wearing the shirt is likely signed up to "TWAW", "TMAM".

Now sure, maybe such a lesbian could argue that they do see trans women as women, but they just don't sexually get off on penis kind of sex. OK, are they open to a post operation trans woman then? Or are they actually more interested in a trans man, like the poll results mentioned? Or would they let a trans woman give them oral?

I think this is an entirely reasonable line of argument that such people may not be acting in accordance with their professed beliefs.

Sure you don't have to have sex with genitals that don't interest you.

But if they are really supposed to be "real women", then I think you would expect to see a significant level of romantic attraction. Why wouldn't you fall in love with them, even if you don't like penis?

And actually, I would suggest, if you do romantically love someone, it's perfectly reasonable to "try to like" a different kind of sex. So wouldn't we expect many such lesbians to be open to experimenting?

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 19:55

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 19:39

Actually I do think there does need to be some gatekeeping, yes.

I'm not saying you personally need to do it.

But people can't just go round redefining words that other people use to refer to themselves and expect everyone else to be OK with it.

If people who have penises, or people who shag people with penises, start calling themselves lesbians, actual lesbians no longer have a word to describe themselves.

If male people, or female people who self describe as "cis women" change the definition of the word "women" to include male people, there is no longer a word that means "female people".

And it doesn't even stop there, because on this very thread we have someone saying that trans women are not male, meaning that even the words male and female have lost all meaning and we no longer have words to describe biological sex in humans. We can identify the different biological sexes in all other animal and plant species, but not in humans, because doing so offends some people.

Do you genuinely not see how this is problematic?

Language evolved as it always has done in every culture, over centuries. New meanings are formed or added, old meanings sometimes drop away.

Eg. Words like awesome, which has previously meant along the lines of inspiring dread.

There is no one authority over language; it exists and functions through common agreement which is liable to change over time, and often reflects increased understanding of complexity in the world.

We do have words that distinguish those areas that you find presently compromised...people on FWR may not like them...eg cis, but they do exist. In complex areas using more words and more precise terms can help with definition.

You're concerned that the term lesbian is compromised...I can tell you right now that it is...but not really because of the reason you think, younger lesbians are identifying away from this term as they do not like the policing of boundaries and definitions that we are seeing on this very thread. They might use queer instead because they are sick to the back teeth of people telling them for eg. They shouldn't identify as a lesbian if they've ever felt attracted to a transman / transwomen/ non binary person. The policing of identities has pushed many to use broader terms instead.

But folk on FWR don't like queer either, whatcha gonna do?! 😂

Froodwithatowel · 24/10/2023 19:55

94% of lesbians, a higher than any other group, have a favourable opinion of transgender people. The rest are a tiny GC minority. So why would ths be a surprise?

Sample number? Pulled from where? I've never been surveyed. And please remember most of us actual homosexuals have been chased out of the 'LGBT+' groups for being homosexual, so the voices of those left are really rather biased and cannot be taken as a fair sample.

If you chased all the vegans out of your vegan group and then surveyed the 5 people left, you'd probably have 94% of vegans having a favorable opinion of veganism being inclusive of meat eating.

Not to mention, I have a perfectly favorable opinion of transgender people thanks. I have a very unfavorable view of those who believe that I should learn to be bisexual and validate men with my body rather than upset them though. Because the disrespect for me is off the scale and casts me as some kind of unpaid sex therapist.

As I'm a 'tiny minority' is this supposedly ok? Conversion therapy ahoy eh? Or are you just going to exclude me from society? #bekind not a thing?