Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

I’m childless, would it be OK for me to go to mothers groups & say I identify as a mother so should be there?

or is it only the groups “women” and “lesbian” that have to accommodate men who identify as belonging?

Everyone has a sexuality though, which is based on someone’s sex being key to your ability to find them sexually attractive.

I am heterosexual. I am not attracted to all men, but I am only attracted to men. There is a whole bunch of things that have to come together for me to be attracted to a particular man, and that whole bunch only ever comes together with men. That’s what being heterosexual means.

I don’t need to inspect their genitals to know they are men. Millennia of evolution has equipped me, and every other human, to know this by looking at them fully clothed.

Your attempts to shame people as ‘obsessed’ with genitals is one of the most far fetched and ridiculous of the gender ideology argument.

We all know what sexuality means. It means you are not attracted to all people of that sex, you are not attracted to them just because of their sex, but you are only attracted to people of that sex.

Oh, the irony.

No, the women you're arguing with are WAY less likely than genderists to be advocates of regressive pink and blue sex stereotypes. (People who actually understand feminism and the history of women's rights will know this, but it seems to be beyond some here. We don't assign personality traits to pink and blue boxes, for a start) And many are lesbians, not straight "queer" people who, it seems to me, get a bit icked out by the idea of women being same sex attracted and not at all open to dick.

I know who the more conservative thinkers are here, and it's not the non-genderists. Makes me laugh that transactivists are so narrow-minded and old-fashioned about "gender" (stereotypes) but seem to fondly imagine they're being the precise opposite.

Sometimes it just sounds like role play/cos play - do the people who don’t care just think identifying as anything is a sacred right - don’t really care what that identity is - baby, cat, lesbian whatever - and they think it doesn’t matter cos they haven’t bothered to find out

get your own words

I suspect a childless male who identified as a mother would be more likely to be allowed to join than a childless female.

Blimey. GC group-think response there. If you don't know, maybe have a quick Google and read some non-GC material about it. I am not here to educate you.

Fabulous. A "go educate yourself" response from a poster accusing others of group think.

As Helen Staniland says: Transactivism - a movement that fails to state what rights it's fighting for on the grounds that it may incriminate itself.

Re the prison issue and IB, trans women aren't automatically put in a woman's prison it's decided on a case by case basis (as is what happened with IB).

She was being held in a woman's prison only while waiting for the decision where she would end up serving her time, in there she was in isolation and kept separate from the prison population. There was a lot of misleading articles on this which left these facts out.

Source for favourable views of transgender people by non-trans lesbians:
https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45983-what-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito

Note non-trans lesbians have a more favourable view of transgender people than any other group. The idea that they have been "pressurised" into this view suggests a very low opinion of lesbians. Consider that it's the six percent who are the ones who have been radicalised. There is a reason that, under oath, the LGB Alliance admitted that only 6% of their supporters were lesbians.

The view that you should only support the rights of particular groups because you are willing to date them is really quite repellent. Peoples' dating preferences are their own. You can support marriage equality without wanting to marry someone of the same gender.

Finally, one of the arguments against gay marriage was that it destroyed the definition of marriage for straight fundie Christians, whereas it had no impact at all. The same argument applies to people who object to trans women who are lesbians.

Thanks for proving the point.

If you'd read anything I'd posted on this thread so far you'd know I am myself homosexual. And would like to be allowed to be.

So no. Obviously not. Bit of a silly comment really.

I don't have the link handy but I saw an interesting article that first states over half of the population are against LGBT rights. But then it breaks it down by age which shows the vast majority are middle-aged and elderly, with all the younger generations supportive and becoming more and more supportive each generation.

Which means in just one more generation there will be a huge change.

This.

In reality, lesbians are not being "presented with a penis". They are being presented with individuals who identify as lesbians when they are quite clearly male. This is going to happen, at the latest, the first moment they set eyes on the person from the lesbian dating app whose photos were heavily filtered and cropped to hide any sign of maleness. In many cases it will still be obvious from the pictures and they don't even need to meet that person.

This argument about "inspecting people's genitals" is so tedious.

The only time it would ever be even remotely necessary to expect someone's genitals would be if you decided to allow post op trans women only to use women's spaces. And since the idea of inspecting people's genitals is obviously a total non-starter, this is why it isn't practical to have an exemption allowing only people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery to use opposite sex toilets, because there is no way of checking this.

In around 99% of cases we can tell whether someone is male or female just by looking at their face, and in cases where there is any doubt in the matter, the person concerned knows full well whether they are male or female.

Responded to and commented on already on the thread. I know, because I did it.

Why not respond to actual homosexual people explaining their thoughts and experiences to you than just repeatedly banging up the same tired attempt?

Is it that you can't engage or listen to anyone else?
Is it that you think if you bang up that silly bit of selected evidence long enough people will just shut up and surrender?
Are you hopeful you can disappear reality if you just shout 'I believe x' long enough?
What's going on in your head when you do this?

The idea that they have been "pressurised" into this view suggests a very low opinion of lesbians

Not really. More that history has repeatedly shown that women (aka female humans) are socialised to be kind and to compromise.

ah another variation of “youre old and you’re going to die soon anyway” the right side of history showing as always that ageism is perfectly acceptable

Ah more ageism! 'You're old and don't matter/ are stupid and young people are right'.

Bloody hell.

Darling, half of us here patiently trying to explain reality are LGB.

There really is zero point in this, I'm going to go and try teaching a pigeon to play chess.

https://lgballiance.org.uk/facts/

Christ, not the 6% thing again - they were being absolutely honest about what they could actually say from stats collected (yes, I know, revolutionary):

We used Mailchimp to send our newsletter and when we set up our account in 2019 we added some subscriber questions which, as it turned out, provided us with ambiguous data.
We asked people whether they were lesbian, whether they were lesbian/gay or if they preferred not to say. The flaws being that we couldn’t tell whether those who ticked lesbian/gay were men or women and that none of the fields were compulsory – so many people skipped them altogether.
The result was that we had 4,502 newsletter subscribers and 316 ticked the box describing themselves as lesbian. That’s 7% of the total. A further 949 ticked the box lesbian/gay and 1,427 were unspecified or preferred not to say. Based on that data that means that between 316 (7%) and 2,376 (53%) of our subscribers were lesbian.
The 7% figure was used in court because it’s important that evidence is based on provable fact and it is a fact that, at a minimum, 7% of our subscribers were lesbians. However, common sense told us that that number was really much higher.

So loads of people grasped onto that, because they're used to people lying about stats.

In August 2022 we commissioned a survey of our subscribers to help us plan to deliver services and support to LGB people. One of the questions we asked was about sexual orientation. That data showed that 34% are lesbian, 33% are gay men, 12% are bisexual, 20% are heterosexual and 1% preferred not to say. We are satisfied that this data is robust.

So there we go, when they did a better survey, they discovered 79% of their subscribers are LGB.

Yet many of the younger generation actually think 'trans rights' are a load of anti woman nonsense.

My DS and his friends don't believe that the teenager boys who wear girls clothes are really girls.

My teenage DD doesn't want to compete for places on teams in her chosen sport with trans girls. She doesn't want to share a bathroom or changing room with them either.

It's not hate to feel that way. It's just preservation of women's rights. Same with sexuality. Trans women who have sex with females are having heterosexual sex. They can consider it a queer relationship if they want but they are not lesbians.

The view that you should only support the rights of particular groups because you are willing to date them is really quite repellent. Peoples' dating preferences are their own.

Absolutely. Nice straw man. The point here is that they don't actually see these males as women, dear @DadJoke, despite fervent claims to the contrary.

The number of male offenders who should be housed in women's prisons is zero, Stephannee.

And even if you accept that it should be decided on a case by case basis, which I don't, Isla Bryson was convicted of rape. Why did there even need to be a "decision" about where he would end up serving his sentence? The answer should have been bloody obvious.

Although we know where Nicola Sturgeon wanted him to be held, and it wasn't "in a men's prison, of course".

I don't have the link handy but I saw an interesting article that first states over half of the population are against LGBT rights. But then it breaks it down by age which shows the vast majority are middle-aged and elderly, with all the younger generations supportive and becoming more and more supportive each generation.

Did they break it down to LGB and T rights? Because no-one I know gives a damn who you fancy/sleep with, but they do feel strongly that girls should be able to have single sex changing rooms (to pick a single example)

Which means in just one more generation there will be a huge change.

There won't, it's already becoming a bit passé. Most of the mostly privileged "non binary" students of today will get over themselves, stop pretending they don't have a sex and settle down into boring corporate roles and become consumed by talk of house prices.

Everyone's opinion matters. My point is times are changing even though there still seems like there's a long way to go. The next generation will be different, go forward two generations and the forecast appears to say the "gender critical" movement just won't exist at all except a couple of lonely voices here and there. The UK and Ireland may one day catch up with the rest of W and Central Europe.

What percentage of the LGB-Alliance are actually LGB again? Oh yeah, 7%.

Support for males in women's spaces has gone down in each consecutive YouGov survey (3 of them) in the last 5 years.

You know how we'll be able to tell that everyone sees transwomen as women?

When they're subject to the kind of casual yet pervasive ageism that is flung at any women presumed to be over 30 from conservatives and "progressives" alike.

What percentage of the LGB-Alliance are actually LGB again? Oh yeah, 7%.

This has been roundly debunked several times over on this very thread. Please read before posting nonsense.