Page 17 | Butches against transpohobia

Catsanfan · 2023-10-24T15:09:00+00:00

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

HazardLights · 24/10/2023 23:58

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 19:26

No, if a woman (whether AFAB or not) only dates cis women and trans women, they are a lesbian. If they only date cis men and trans men, they are straight. Just as you don't have to date AMAB people if you don't want to, you also don't get to tell other lesbians that their self definition isn't valid.

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So, by that definition, if a lesbian woman sleeps with another woman who secretly identifies as a man, but they don’t tell her, is she now bi and she doesn’t know it?!

What if I sleep with a man and he doesn’t tell me he identifies as a cat - have I committed bestiality?!

Or is it all just a load of bollocks. Male ones.

tobee · 24/10/2023 23:59

Sorry, to clarify, if anyone's interested, I meant it'STILL very much a "niche viewpoint" that trans women are a subset of women. It is NOT a niche viewpoint that trans women are in fact males.

I confused myself there!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:59

Ah sorry I misunderstood @tobee!

OneMorePlant · 25/10/2023 00:16

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 23:31

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process. Those of us who have presented our case have managed to do so without anger and name calling, because what other women choose to do and to call ourselves don't bother us. The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD. I could see how that would smart if you are so insecure.

Oh look, someone who follows a regressive misogynist ideology is calling women, who disagree, hysterical. First time in history this has happened.

tobee · 25/10/2023 00:45

"

"gender woo"?

If you mean trans people, you might find every gay bar and LGBT friendly area in Britain are welcoming and supportive of trans people. I'm afraid I don't think I can say the same for "people with gender critical views", these people are probably best staying away from the LGBT community IMHO."

Actually, in the research I've done, fwiw, gay bars (for gay men) tend to be for gay men. Lesbian bars tend not really to exist. Or certainly don't advertise themselves as that. They tend to have become for lesbian, non binary and for trans. Funny that. The old "budge up women. (Gay) men as you were!"

catduckgoose · 25/10/2023 00:46

Stephannee · 24/10/2023 23:52

"gender woo"?

If you mean trans people, you might find every gay bar and LGBT friendly area in Britain are welcoming and supportive of trans people. I'm afraid I don't think I can say the same for "people with gender critical views", these people are probably best staying away from the LGBT community IMHO.

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https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/do-lesbians-have-penises

Thankfully not every lesbian space is set up for the pleasure of men who pretend to be women.

Do lesbians have penises?

Listen now (21 mins) | No. But men do. And some of them think they are entitled to crash lesbian events. Listen here to what happened

https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/do-lesbians-have-penises

PorcelinaV · 25/10/2023 02:12

@JaneGainsborough

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process.

I would compare it to crazy religious beliefs.

It's fine if people believe in some strange cult. I support their right to believe it and practice their religion within normal boundaries.

But if, say, you worship aliens that you claim live on one of Jupiter's moons, that kind of belief doesn't deserve to be seen as credible. You're allowed that view, but quite honestly it's so silly it's going to be mocked.

If these cult followers then start demanding to be given special rights then obviously that is going to get objections from the wider society that they are being unreasonable.

And we aren't going to rename any of Jupiter's moons just because this cult thinks it's an appropriate way to honour their alien masters.

And if they start calling people "phobic" for not going along with their demands well it's going to get pointed out which side is actually the irrational one.

Waitwhat23 · 25/10/2023 03:50

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:02

I provided a direct like to official OECD data rather than that provided via a secondary source, as is best practice.

I then advised on how to compared just the OECD countries on the map, and you will see from this that New Zealand is certainly not ranked worst amongst them for violence against women.

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www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/008fcef3-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/008fcef3-en#:~:text=Across%20OECD%20countries%2C%2022%25%20of,violence%20in%20the%20past%20year

'Aotearoa-New Zealand “has one of the highest rates of sexual and domestic violence in the developed world”.[8] In a country of 4.9 million, half a million women are thought to be survivors of domestic violence.[9]'

From - www.eth.mpg.de/molab-inventory/mobility-events/domestic-violence-in-australia-and-aotearoa-nz-during-the-covid-19-pandemic

Scotland, a country with a similar population size, has 1 in 5 women experiencing violence over their lifetime. In New Zealand, it is 1 in 3.

From the graph, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and New Zealand (the top 5 in the Global Gender Gap Report) are all either on or above the OECD average for percentage of women experiencing violence during their lifetime.

As an aside, Canada (who have introduced self identification in several of its provinces) has a percentage of 44.1% as of the 2023 data. It is also number 30 on the Global Gender Gap Report listings -
www.weforum.org/publications/global-gender-gap-report-2023/in-full/benchmarking-gender-gaps-2023

WarriorN · 25/10/2023 06:02

Well this thread brought all the boys to the yard...

👀

turbonerd · 25/10/2023 06:43

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 21:27

Further to this information on countries that are happy to proceed with citizen self-definition rather than strict dictionary definitions as many on this thread would prefer, I want to pre-empt some of the points that people often come back with when this data is cited... so firstly people often say that these countries are not recording sex properly, so how do we know what the figures actually show?

So to answer that, a tiny, tiny minority of these populations are identifying as trans, and there has been no dramatic change in these figures. If there are trans women in the figures for women then this would actually lower that countries performance in the inequality index, as trans women score poorly across all the outcomes that are measured, and this would drag that country's performance for women down, not artificially inflate it.

A second point some people make is that these countries did not ask their populations in a referendum about these issues, and that was unfair. The reality is the vast majority of policies in democratic countries are introduced by governments without referenda, and in fact this helps protect against bigotry that influences the popular vote unfortunately.

A third point that some people make is that we do not know the outcomes of these decisions yet as they have been made in the last few years and we're still gathering research about the impact. The reality is that the most pronounced effect of policy change occurs immediately or very soon after the implementation of that policy, so you would expect to see dramatic shifts occur around the time of the new policy and implementation, and to see this very visibly contrast to what had been seen prior to policy implementation. Thereafter you would expect to see a tapering effect occur.

For example, in a hypothetical given population you might see 500 people make use of the new rights in the first year that it is introduced, and then in subsequent years maybe 200 and then 100 and then 50 to 80 every year moving forward. If a negative effect of the introduction of a new policy were to occur you would expect this to be very striking in the immediate period after the introduction and then a tapering effects to occur. There is no evidence from any countries about any measurable negative impact on women of this policy change.

The countries that introduced these policies and are in the top four performing countries for women worldwide have stayed in these positions; if there was a negative impact on women as a result of introducing relaxed self gender ID procedures you would expect to see these countries drop down this equalities table as a result. The fact that they have not is strong evidence that these policies have not been a detriment to women.

A fourth point that some people have made is that introducing these policies has not been causative in making life better for women. Of course I am not trying to make any causative case along those lines, I am simply pointing out that there has been no measurable negative effect on women because of the introduction of these policies. We do know in general that, as the lives and well-being of LGBT people improve, so do the lives and well-being of women in a given population however.

A fifth point that people make is that different measures should have been used in the formation of this equality's index; for example, they ask why crimes against women have not been used to help form it. The fact is that countries measure criminality in different ways and so some countries might not, for example, record wife beating as a crime, and it also may be very under-reported in some countries. This would lead to data that is not robust and where cross comparison cannot accurately be performed, so it is not appropriate to use measures like this due to the variations in the reporting and the recording of crimes against women in different countries.

What we do know is that the measures that the equalities index do use tend to be very well correlated (negatively) with violence against women; so, when women are performing well economically, educationally, health-wise, and politically, they also are, on the whole, at less risk of criminality and abuse.

The fact is that those top countries, Iceland, Norway, Finland, New Zealand, have excellent track records in their performance on women's equality. Why would you think, that given their excellent track record, they are all suddenly going wrong now? Their excellent track records have not been impacted by their introduction of their relaxed self-ID policies – and these are policies that are proceeding without strict, dictionary definitions that many posters on this thread seem obsessed with, and are making use of the right of their citizens to determine their definitions for themselves.

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I’m going to refute that on behalf of Norway.
All the legislation behind it was passed bt stealth, the T tagged on to the LGB, and people were not aware.
Now that people are becoming aware, many are NOT happy. And many, many do NOT agree.

The vast majority would absolutely welcome Third, neutral spaces, and are opposed to discrimination and harrassment of transpeople. BUT, we want to keep our sex segregated spaces.

We want ALL to be able to live full lives, safe and content. And segregation in some instances based on biological sex plays a huge part in that.

Sports peaked the nation, as far as I can tell.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 07:23

hihelenhi · 24/10/2023 23:42

"I'm so cool and open and you're just all SO uptight."

No, you're being a control-freak, Jane. You're trying to give the impression of being liberated, but seems to me you're a boring spicy straight who believes in regressive sex stereotypes, that's all. You don't seem able to live and let live. You don't respect other people's boundaries. You can't deal with others who have different views from you or who understand the big picture way better than you do. You're being coercive. I don't believe you do find "this hysteria amusing". I think you're trying to prove you're better than we are. It's Cool Girl script. It screams insecurity.

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Absolutely this. It is Jane and Stephanee and all the believers in this ideology who cannot accept that other people have differing opinions. Not us.

I don't really see gender critical feminists saying to trans people, "You have to accept our belief that people who were born with penises are men and people who were born with vaginas are women."

What I do see is people like Jane, Stephanee, Owen Jones, Billy Bragg, Nicola Sturgeon, Keir Starmer and Ed Davey saying to gender critical feminists (and everybody else whose beliefs are grounded in biological reality), "You have to accept our belief that some women have penises and that anyone with a penis who identifies as a woman is welcome in all women's spaces. If you don't accept that, you are a bigot."

Gender critical feminists don't care all that much whether people like India Willoughby and Lia Thomas believe they are women, or if we do, we recognise that we can't do much about it. What we want is to safeguard the rights of women and girls (including lesbians) to have their own terminology and their own spaces and sports, access to which is granted or denied by reference to objective criteria.

"Being biologically female" is an objective criterion. You are either female or you are not.

So is "being homosexual". You are either open to having sexual relationships with the opposite sex or you are not.

Jane, Stephanee et al. want use of terminology and access to these spaces to be governed according to entirely subjective criteria, i.e. any person who wants to use these words to describe themselves and have access to these spaces based on how they claim to feel inside should be entitled to do so.

This is not "live and let live". This is enforcing the acceptance of a minority group's beliefs about gender on a non-believing, non-consenting majority.

Now if you were born with a penis and you feel very strongly that you are not a man, that you cannot use men's spaces and if you are barred from using women's spaces there will be no spaces you can use, it is on you to campaign for your own spaces. And if you were born with a penis and you are sexually attracted to people born with vaginas but you feel that words such as "straight" or "heterosexual" do not accurately describe you because you do not identify as a man, feel free to come up with new words for what you believe you are.

What you shouldn't have the right to do is include women in your sexual or gender identity without their consent. If your identity depends on forcing other people into the box you have created for yourself whether they like it or not, and appropriating the language those people use to describe themselves based on characteristics you do not have, it is not valid and nobody should feel obliged to respect it.

literalviolence · 25/10/2023 07:24

HazardLights · 24/10/2023 23:58

So, by that definition, if a lesbian woman sleeps with another woman who secretly identifies as a man, but they don’t tell her, is she now bi and she doesn’t know it?!

What if I sleep with a man and he doesn’t tell me he identifies as a cat - have I committed bestiality?!

Or is it all just a load of bollocks. Male ones.

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I don't identify as a woman because I don't subscribe to gender ideology. Does my not identifying as a woman make my OH no longer heterosexual?

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 07:28

literalviolence · 25/10/2023 07:24

I don't identify as a woman because I don't subscribe to gender ideology. Does my not identifying as a woman make my OH no longer heterosexual?

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I still want to know whether a man who gets drunk and uses his wife's HCG trigger shot and then pees on a stick is a pregnant woman, because hormones. Clearblue says yes. What do you think?

Flickersy · 25/10/2023 07:33

Absolutely this. It is Jane and Stephanee and all the believers in this ideology who cannot accept that other people have differing opinions. Not us.

This thread was literally started by someone astounded that someone had a different opinion on a t-shirt.

ArabellaScott · 25/10/2023 07:33

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 23:31

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process. Those of us who have presented our case have managed to do so without anger and name calling, because what other women choose to do and to call ourselves don't bother us. The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD. I could see how that would smart if you are so insecure.

You've yet to define what 'femininity' is, or answer whether a transwoman who does not take estrogen is just a man.

Fancy having a go?

ArabellaScott · 25/10/2023 07:45

I don't really see gender critical feminists saying to trans people, "You have to accept our belief that people who were born with penises are men and people who were born with vaginas are women."

I'll say that. Women are women. Not men. We need to have the very clear words with very clear meanings understood properly by everyone.

The belief you describe is very very basic and I think everyone should share and understand it.

Humans are sexually dimorphic, sex is immutable. People born with penises are men and people born with vaginas are women.

Even someone who believes in gender identity should acknowledge their sex.

PlanetJanette · 25/10/2023 07:51

There’s a constant trope on here that expresses shock at the idea of lesbians supporting trans people or believing that trans women are women - it’s based on this idea that:

if a trans woman is a woman, all lesbians must be willing to sleep with them and if they are not then it proves that they are not women;
for those lesbians who are in relationships with trans women, the trope goes that they’re not ‘real’ lesbians.

Of course both premises are nonsense.

only works if you think lesbians have some obligation to sleep with someone just because they are a woman. Of course that’s nonsense - it’s perfectly reasonable for lesbians to see a woman, recognise her as a woman, but not be attracted to her. That applies to cis women and trans women alike - someone’s willingness to have sex with you is not determinative of whether someone is a woman or not.
is just old fashioned policing of sexuality. Lesbians get to set their own boundaries - not anyone else. If those boundaries exclude trans women that is a matter entirely for them. It’s also a matter entirely for them if it includes trans women.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 07:54

wordler · 24/10/2023 23:39

I don’t think trans women are the same as biological women.

I don’t believe you can change sex.

I believe it’s important to have clear, factual, scientific terms for human categories.

I think the binary biological system has created a toxic binary gender stereotyped view of humans which has caused both men and women but mostly women a lot of pain, disadvantage and suffering.

I think while we are growing and ‘transitioning’ out of these gender stereotypes which will take a long time still we are going to have to deal with a lot of growing pains.

I do have hope that there’s a way forward which protects and respects women’s needs and at the same time is open to creating third option spaces (or more) to deal with a society which is expanding beyond the binary gender options.

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How very reasonable.

The thing is, @wordler, I have a feeling that where you currently are with all of this is the same place most gender critical feminists were a few years ago.

Most of us, particularly those who are themselves gender non conforming (including many lesbians and bisexuals) are entirely sympathetic to the view that forcing someone to perform the stereotypes associated with their biological sex is regressive and damaging. We are all for the breaking down of arbitrary barriers, and fully support people challenging gender norms. Many gender critical feminists on this forum talk openly about how hot some men can look in skirts and makeup.

We are also broadly liberal, mostly left leaning, and extremely clear about the fact that we believe trans people should be treated with respect and dignity, not be discriminated against, and be allowed to go about their lives peacefully, free from harassment. Most of us have been the victims of harassment (or worse) at some point, and know how awful it is.

So that is the starting point. That's where I was three years ago.

Then I heard people talking about how JK Rowling is an awful transphobic bigot who puts trans people's lives at risk with her dangerous far right rhetoric. And I thought, "Really? JK Rowling? The JK Rowling who wrote a series of books condemning bullying and bigotry? The JK Rowling who prominently tweets about her left of centre political views, is a member of the Labour Party and friends with Gordon and Sarah Brown? The JK Rowling who never met an oppressed minority she didn't want to help and has donated countless millions to worthy causes? That JK Rowling? Are you quite sure?"

So I went on the internet to find out what JK Rowling has actually said about trans issues. Now, to be clear, most of what she has said is about women's rights. Yes, there is a knock on impact on trans issues because she is strongly in favour of women having their own single sex spaces and sports. But it comes from a place of caring about women's rights, not hating trans people. I don't believe she has said anything which indicates that she actually has a problem with trans people. But she has raised awareness of certain issues. And thanks to JK Rowling, I am now very aware of this particular topic.

That's why I am aware that it is almost impossible, in most parts of the UK, for female rape survivors to access single sex rape crisis support, because the providers of these services believe that trans women should have access to ALL women's groups even though they also have their own specific groups for trans people. It's why I'm aware of just how many male athletes are competing in women's sporting categories. It's why I'm aware of the damage caused by puberty blockers, the unscrupulous surgeons advertising on Tiktok that they will remove a 13 year old girl's healthy breasts for $12000, and the regrets of detransitioners. It's why I'm aware of the homophobic views of so-called LGBT organisations including Stonewall. It's why I know about the findings of the Cass Report, the safeguarding failures at the Tavistock clinic, and the fact that Mermaids (the UK's main trans children's charity) helped fast track children as young as 10 onto puberty blockers with the help of a GP who has since been struck off, and until recently had a self confessed paedophile on its board of trustees. It's how I knew all about the male sex offenders who identify as women and get to serve their sentences in women's prisons long before Isla Bryson made the headlines.

So your point of view, entirely reasonable as it is, is where I was about four years ago. But when you scratch the surface and find out what really lies behind "be kind" and "live and let live" and "trans women are women", it would not be surprising if you found yourself as horrified as some of us now are.

Right now you're still in the "we need new terminology and third spaces for trans people" phase. Perhaps go and look on Twitter and read India Willoughby boasting about refusing to use the gender neutral toilets at the airport recently and walking 20 minutes in the wrong direction to find female only ones where India could pee in the presence of women, and maybe you will understand that the only people calling for third spaces are gender critical feminists.

ArabellaScott · 25/10/2023 07:55

If a woman is attracted to both women and men she is bisexual.

It's fairly simple.

It's not a bad thing to be bisexual.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 07:58

PlanetJanette · 25/10/2023 07:51

There’s a constant trope on here that expresses shock at the idea of lesbians supporting trans people or believing that trans women are women - it’s based on this idea that:

if a trans woman is a woman, all lesbians must be willing to sleep with them and if they are not then it proves that they are not women;
for those lesbians who are in relationships with trans women, the trope goes that they’re not ‘real’ lesbians.

Of course both premises are nonsense.

only works if you think lesbians have some obligation to sleep with someone just because they are a woman. Of course that’s nonsense - it’s perfectly reasonable for lesbians to see a woman, recognise her as a woman, but not be attracted to her. That applies to cis women and trans women alike - someone’s willingness to have sex with you is not determinative of whether someone is a woman or not.
is just old fashioned policing of sexuality. Lesbians get to set their own boundaries - not anyone else. If those boundaries exclude trans women that is a matter entirely for them. It’s also a matter entirely for them if it includes trans women.

Sorry but this is nonsense.

Lesbians whose boundary is, "We want a word that means female homosexual and does not include anyone who is male or attracted to males" are being told that they can't have that boundary.

And Nancy Kelley, whilst in her role as CEO of Stonewall said that lesbians who would not consider dating trans women just because they happen to have been born male are akin to sexual racists.

I'm not making this up. She actually said it.

It's unclear whether Nancy Kelley's own lesbian sex life has ever included any penises, or whether she was only talking about other lesbians.

Slothtoes · 25/10/2023 08:15

If your identity depends on forcing other people into the box you have created for yourself whether they like it or not, and appropriating the language those people use to describe themselves based on characteristics you do not have, it is not valid and nobody should feel obliged to respect it

Margot puts this perfectly. Rejecting forced validation does not imply any kind of ‘-phobia’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 08:43

You've yet to define what 'femininity' is, or answer whether a transwoman who does not take estrogen is just a man.

And the "butches" of the OP would also presumably be men to this poster as eschewing "femininity", despite not defining themselves as such. How inclusive.

literalviolence · 25/10/2023 08:45

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 07:28

I still want to know whether a man who gets drunk and uses his wife's HCG trigger shot and then pees on a stick is a pregnant woman, because hormones. Clearblue says yes. What do you think?

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I think if he identifies as pregnant, he must be. Identification trumps fact apparently

Justwrong68 · 25/10/2023 08:46

PorcelinaV · 24/10/2023 18:45

Having a "favourable opinion" could just mean they support their non binary female friends.

The poll on romantic interest does show an interesting result for lesbians; it's higher than you might expect for interest in trans women.

But it's only one poll and didn't use a representative sample.

I also wonder if some liberal "LGBT" women may be giving conformist answers, that they don't really subscribe to.

After that poll was released, a lot of people said they weren't polled and quite a few said they though trans woman meant a woman who'd had a sex change

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 08:48

Yes there was another poll done to explore this, and depending on region, one quarter to one third of people thought a "trans woman" was a biological female who identified as a man. Which is as I said, intuitive if you don't have a belief in gender identity ideology.