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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butches against transpohobia

804 replies

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 16:09

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

OP posts:
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24
MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:26

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:21

O no, I take it all back and have seen the error of my ways, yeah, you're right, we're seeing 30-40% of men suddenly identifying as women and it's dramatically skewing the figures....yawn.

As I have said before, a tiny, tiny minority of these populations are identifying as trans, and there has been no dramatic change in these figures. If there are trans women in the figures for violence against women recorded in some countries, and this fact was considered in isolation, then this would increase the figures in the data showing violence against women, as we know that transwomen face violence at very high rates. So if that was the only thing that was relevant and there was no other context to consider we would expect to see those countries with relaxed policies of self-ID showing worse rates of violence against women, as they would include more transwomen in their figures compared to other countries.

Of course, this is not generally what we see, because the policy of gender self-ID does not exist in isolation of the social context, and those countries who have more relaxed policies of self ID also tend to have better rights, wellbeing and outcomes and more positive societal attitudes for both their LGBT populations and for women, and subsequent correlations with lower rates of violence against women.

It doesn't matter how tiny the percentage is.

If you are collecting and publishing data about women and you cannot define what a woman is, or you are including people who were born male within your definition, your data and your analysis are fundamentally flawed from start to finish. If we can't trust that your definition of women is correct, and that you are including the correct group of people in your analysis and excluding all others, we can't trust anything else you say either.

We don't know which other assumptions you have made may be as fatally flawed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:30

Yeah it is a niche viewpoint though

No, it is the majority viewpoint, sorry to say.

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 23:31

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process. Those of us who have presented our case have managed to do so without anger and name calling, because what other women choose to do and to call ourselves don't bother us. The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD. I could see how that would smart if you are so insecure.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:31

Excellent post @hihelenhi

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:32

tobee · 24/10/2023 23:19

"
They are as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think it's a niche viewpoint."

Yeah it is a niche viewpoint though

What is a niche viewpoint?

That trans women are male?

I think it's only a niche viewpoint among trans activists, and people who mistakenly believe that a trans woman is a biological female who identifies as a man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:32

Those of us who have presented our case

You haven't. As I said, you haven't made any rational case for why other people should share your gender identity belief.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:34

The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD

That really isn't the majority of posts on the thread, most of them are calling out the homophobia. Perhaps you're reading a different one?

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:35

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 23:31

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process. Those of us who have presented our case have managed to do so without anger and name calling, because what other women choose to do and to call ourselves don't bother us. The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD. I could see how that would smart if you are so insecure.

"Hysteria".

Jesus Christ, you actually went there.

Those silly hysterical uterus owners. Why can't they just accept that these penis owners have a different opinion about whether uterus owners should be allowed to have any words for themselves or their own spaces or sports or lesbian dating apps?

Why can't they just live and let me and my penis into the women's communal showers live?

Fuck this nonsense. I really am off to bed now.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:35

But how typical of genderists to rewrite things entirely to suit themselves.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:36

Jesus Christ, you actually went there.

Of course.

wordler · 24/10/2023 23:39

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:06

Do you believe trans women are women?

If yes then you have a belief system and use of the word "cis" is one of the markers of that belief system.

If you don't believe trans women are women then why use the language of a belief system you don't share?

I don’t think trans women are the same as biological women.

I don’t believe you can change sex.

I believe it’s important to have clear, factual, scientific terms for human categories.

I think the binary biological system has created a toxic binary gender stereotyped view of humans which has caused both men and women but mostly women a lot of pain, disadvantage and suffering.

I think while we are growing and ‘transitioning’ out of these gender stereotypes which will take a long time still we are going to have to deal with a lot of growing pains.

I do have hope that there’s a way forward which protects and respects women’s needs and at the same time is open to creating third option spaces (or more) to deal with a society which is expanding beyond the binary gender options.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:40

I don’t think trans women are the same as biological women.

In what way are this group of males connected at all?

hihelenhi · 24/10/2023 23:42

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 23:31

I actually find all this hysteria quite amusing, if I'm honest. People just cannot comprehend that other people have a diiferent view, and they get so nasty and so insulting in the process. Those of us who have presented our case have managed to do so without anger and name calling, because what other women choose to do and to call ourselves don't bother us. The OP and others are just angry because they hoped for a thread where people would come and tut about those awful awful trans women, and instead were told it was NBD. I could see how that would smart if you are so insecure.

"I'm so cool and open and you're just all SO uptight."

No, you're being a control-freak, Jane. You're trying to give the impression of being liberated, but seems to me you're a boring spicy straight who believes in regressive sex stereotypes, that's all. You don't seem able to live and let live. You don't respect other people's boundaries. You can't deal with others who have different views from you or who understand the big picture way better than you do. You're being coercive. I don't believe you do find "this hysteria amusing". I think you're trying to prove you're better than we are. It's Cool Girl script. It screams insecurity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:42

🎯

wordler · 24/10/2023 23:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:40

I don’t think trans women are the same as biological women.

In what way are this group of males connected at all?

In the way that they are human beings working and living in society alongside other human beings?

Connected in the way that we are all connnected within communities living side by side - changing and developing the way we act and view the world.

There are some acting in bad faith but that doesn’t mean there’s not a way forward for the future for everyone else.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:46

In the way that they are human beings working and living in society alongside other human beings?

Well yes, like all other males. What makes them "women"?

wordler · 24/10/2023 23:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:46

In the way that they are human beings working and living in society alongside other human beings?

Well yes, like all other males. What makes them "women"?

I never said they were women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:50

But you do believe their identity should be validated by other women, no?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:52

Other women as in other women to you, not them. I don't call these males women in any sense.

Stephannee · 24/10/2023 23:52

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 16:16

I do, absolutely, but I can't understand why any lesbian (or indeed anyone) can believe in all this gender woo

"gender woo"?

If you mean trans people, you might find every gay bar and LGBT friendly area in Britain are welcoming and supportive of trans people. I'm afraid I don't think I can say the same for "people with gender critical views", these people are probably best staying away from the LGBT community IMHO.

Screamingabdabz · 24/10/2023 23:52

If I saw that t shirt I’d assume the person was still working things out. Anybody with half a brain and a will to be honest to themselves will reach the sheer biological truth ultimately.

wordler · 24/10/2023 23:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:50

But you do believe their identity should be validated by other women, no?

I honestly don’t know what you are asking here?

Do I think there should be single sex spaces and single sex provisions for certain situations and areas - yes I do.

Do I think that if Ken wants to dress like Barbie, be called Barbie by friends and family and live life in a way generally identified as a female gender stereotype - yes I do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:56

Do I think that if Ken wants to dress like Barbie, be called Barbie by friends and family and live life in a way generally identified as a female gender stereotype - yes I do.

They and their friends and family are free to do this in a free country. I think you are very aware that's not all that's being asked.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 23:57

I also think and hope that in future we will be able to "conscientiously object" to calling males women and using female pronouns. I don't share that belief.

HazardLights · 24/10/2023 23:57

Deleting duplicate.

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