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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butches against transpohobia

804 replies

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 16:09

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

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24
catduckgoose · 24/10/2023 22:43

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 22:06

It's no point arguing with these people. It isn't enough for them to live and let live, they want to insist that everyone has the same opinions that they do, hence the thread being started in the first place. I wouldn't waste your energy.

Live and let live would be great. Much, much better than the eradication of all female-only spaces and language, done solely to please the desires of men.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:43

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:35

Well I'm not sure why you think you know better than the countries who have been leading the way in women's equality and well-being for years, and have continued their excellent track record on these measures despite their decisions to implement policies of self ID, but there we have it.

Still no comment about how New Zealand is so high up in the rankings despite having the highest domestic violence rate of any country in the OECD?

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:46

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:39

Is the data I referred to which was released 4 months ago not present-tense enough for you?

Well less than four months ago women attending a peaceful women's rights event in New Zealand were attacked by an angry mob, the police were nowhere to be seen, the Prime Minister praised the angry mob on live television, the British woman invited to be the guest speaker had to leave the country due to fears for her own personal safety, and the country's mainstream media subsequently defamed her across a number of platforms whilst making zero mention of the men who assaulted her and other women's rights campaigners.

So I'd say it was time for a review.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 22:48

I can't even be bothered with the bad faith disingenuous takes of this poster. They've refused to take these points on board every time, then pop up with this as if it's a gotcha. It's only tangentially related to the thread, but it's all they have.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:49

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:43

Still no comment about how New Zealand is so high up in the rankings despite having the highest domestic violence rate of any country in the OECD?

Here is a link to the data regarding violence against women on the OECD website rather than through a 3rd party:

https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm

Inequality - Violence against women - OECD Data

Find, compare and share OECD data by indicator.

https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:52

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:49

Here is a link to the data regarding violence against women on the OECD website rather than through a 3rd party:

https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm

You can change the measure to 'prevalence in the lifetime' at the bottom

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 22:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 22:48

I can't even be bothered with the bad faith disingenuous takes of this poster. They've refused to take these points on board every time, then pop up with this as if it's a gotcha. It's only tangentially related to the thread, but it's all they have.

Indeed. Tedious derailing.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:53

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:49

Here is a link to the data regarding violence against women on the OECD website rather than through a 3rd party:

https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm

Do you understand the difference between data published by the OECD comparing rates of violence against women all over the world, and data comparing rates of domestic violence specifically in OECD member countries?

I'll give you a clue.

Most of the dots on that map are not OECD member countries.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:55

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:53

Do you understand the difference between data published by the OECD comparing rates of violence against women all over the world, and data comparing rates of domestic violence specifically in OECD member countries?

I'll give you a clue.

Most of the dots on that map are not OECD member countries.

I'll give you a clue as well - how about you compare the OECD countries on that map and leave the others out if you want to.

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 22:56

You would probably be worse off being a woman in Afghanistan than a woman in NZ but it is a frighteningly close run thing.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:58

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:55

I'll give you a clue as well - how about you compare the OECD countries on that map and leave the others out if you want to.

So you dispute the data that someone else provided by providing a different set of data measuring different things and including different countries and you want me to deconstruct the data you provided to prove why the data the other person provided is wrong?

Pass. I'm going to bed. It's midnight my time.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 24/10/2023 22:59

wow, if you read the first page of this thread and then move to the last 🤯

we can’t define peoples sexuality! Some lesbians wouldn’t date a trans woman. Some would. Some lesbians made a poster to support their trans friends. A community is not a homogeny- we are allowed to disagree

my goodness, people are so quick to be vicious

SpiderMaam · 24/10/2023 23:00

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 22:39

Is the data I referred to which was released 4 months ago not present-tense enough for you?

Remember how the UK was the beacon of trans rights. back in 2004?

And now we’re Terf Island.

How about the time that the Tories attempted to solve child poverty by redefining ‘poverty’?

Redefining ‘women’ to include men with lady-feelz means your data Is untrustworthy.

Which is one of many reasons that Trans Rights are detrimental to female wellbeing.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:02

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 22:58

So you dispute the data that someone else provided by providing a different set of data measuring different things and including different countries and you want me to deconstruct the data you provided to prove why the data the other person provided is wrong?

Pass. I'm going to bed. It's midnight my time.

I provided a direct like to official OECD data rather than that provided via a secondary source, as is best practice.

I then advised on how to compared just the OECD countries on the map, and you will see from this that New Zealand is certainly not ranked worst amongst them for violence against women.

SpiderMaam · 24/10/2023 23:02

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 24/10/2023 22:59

wow, if you read the first page of this thread and then move to the last 🤯

we can’t define peoples sexuality! Some lesbians wouldn’t date a trans woman. Some would. Some lesbians made a poster to support their trans friends. A community is not a homogeny- we are allowed to disagree

my goodness, people are so quick to be vicious

Vicious?

Are you attempting to female-socialise us by shaming us into agreeing with you? Not very feminist of you.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:03

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:02

I provided a direct like to official OECD data rather than that provided via a secondary source, as is best practice.

I then advised on how to compared just the OECD countries on the map, and you will see from this that New Zealand is certainly not ranked worst amongst them for violence against women.

I provided a direct link...

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:05

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 24/10/2023 22:59

wow, if you read the first page of this thread and then move to the last 🤯

we can’t define peoples sexuality! Some lesbians wouldn’t date a trans woman. Some would. Some lesbians made a poster to support their trans friends. A community is not a homogeny- we are allowed to disagree

my goodness, people are so quick to be vicious

Yes we can.

We absolutely can define people's sexuality.

Anyone who has sex with a trans woman is not a lesbian. Because lesbians are female homosexuals and trans women are male.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It is extremely homophobic to say that lesbians can't have a word for themselves because trans women will be sad if they aren't included.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:06

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:03

I provided a direct link...

If you go to the 'highlighted countries' at the bottom of the map you can select OECD countries as the background which will enable you to make an easier comparison.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:06

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:03

I provided a direct link...

How does the OECD define women, out of interest?

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 23:08

@suggestionsplease1 How can we have an honest conversation with you when you steal or subvert every word that we use?

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:09

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 23:08

@suggestionsplease1 How can we have an honest conversation with you when you steal or subvert every word that we use?

I think the whole point of subverting all the words is to prevent an honest conversation from taking place.

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 23:11

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:09

I think the whole point of subverting all the words is to prevent an honest conversation from taking place.

You are not wrong.

hihelenhi · 24/10/2023 23:18

catduckgoose · 24/10/2023 22:43

Live and let live would be great. Much, much better than the eradication of all female-only spaces and language, done solely to please the desires of men.

I think people like JaneGainsborough could really do with applying the principle of live and let live a bit more, tbh.

In other words, respect the fact that other women (like many lesbians, say) might have boundaries she hasn't chosen for herself. It's not her decision to prevent them having the right to say no because she personally thinks it's "cooler" not to have any boundaries. Others do. Nobody's stopping Jane. Nobody's waving banners and screaming violent abuse outside Jane's meetings telling her she's compelled to make them women-only, but lesbians do have transactivists outside theirs screaming abuse and demanding that they include some males (aka TW) in their events and dating pool and calling them bigots. Actually campaigning to get lesbian events closed down.

Campaigning against other people being allowed to meet with who they want is not showing how "liberated" you are. It's coercive and controlling behaviour. It's not up to you to impose bisexuality on other women who are not interested in the opposite sex.

Also respect the fact that not everyone agrees with the imposition of a change of the meaning of words, or your quasi religious belief framework about gender. You didn't ask us. We've told you we don't agree. It's incredibly rude to impose that. I think gender ideology is full of holes, and sexist, homophobic rubbish, Jane and others on here who pretend to be so "mystified" about why we won't just fall in line. I don't accept it as the truth. You might not "get" why, but your lack of comprehension around things that are absolutely glaring to me and many other women really is your problem, not mine.

Oh, and ffs, "woman" and "femininity" are not synonymous. That's the kind of thing old fashioned sexists from the 70s used to say, people who literally can't cope with anything outside their rigid pink blue stereotypes of how they think 'normal' men and women are supposed to behave. Are you one of those? I'm a woman because I'm biologically female in every cell of my body and an adult. I'm not "feminine".

tobee · 24/10/2023 23:19

"
They are as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think it's a niche viewpoint."

Yeah it is a niche viewpoint though

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 23:21

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 23:06

How does the OECD define women, out of interest?

O no, I take it all back and have seen the error of my ways, yeah, you're right, we're seeing 30-40% of men suddenly identifying as women and it's dramatically skewing the figures....yawn.

As I have said before, a tiny, tiny minority of these populations are identifying as trans, and there has been no dramatic change in these figures. If there are trans women in the figures for violence against women recorded in some countries, and this fact was considered in isolation, then this would increase the figures in the data showing violence against women, as we know that transwomen face violence at very high rates. So if that was the only thing that was relevant and there was no other context to consider we would expect to see those countries with relaxed policies of self-ID showing worse rates of violence against women, as they would include more transwomen in their figures compared to other countries.

Of course, this is not generally what we see, because the policy of gender self-ID does not exist in isolation of the social context, and those countries who have more relaxed policies of self ID also tend to have better rights, wellbeing and outcomes and more positive societal attitudes for both their LGBT populations and for women, and subsequent correlations with lower rates of violence against women.