Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

I also don’t know how to address it - in various threads, empathy, reason & outright fury all seem to fail.

It just has to be a hard no. Yes, I'm empathetic to why someone might have genuine fears (and yes I support third spaces) but the answer is not to let transwomen in to women's spaces.

I don’t see the equivalence that you are making in regards to alphas posts and our posts. I believe I understand your motivation but not quite understand your thinking here.

Male trans people tell us all the time they just want to pee. Are we not to believe them?

Female toilets are not used for just peeing. That is the point that so many of us make. And we keep pointing out that often our needs are not contained to cubicles.

Plus, male trans people insisting on using the female toilets do so using the argument about safety. Again, where is the equivalence with female people here? Other vulnerable male people continue to use the male toilets. Why are this group of male people more vulnerable and need special treatment?

The equivalency for male trans people is not that of female people. They are comparative to other vulnerable male people. And all vulnerable male people deserve respect, no one is saying they don’t. However, where are the compaigns to improve the safety for all vulnerable male people if this is such an issue?

@BonfireLady, I agree - it’s a No from me!

But what I mean is, how to get them, & the society enabling them, to understand the legitimacy of women’s No?

Or, more accurately, I guess what I mean is, How can it possibly be that they, & society, don’t/won’t understand this. How?!?

Can we unpick this a bit?

Why does your DH feel unnerved when a man in women's clothing is in the men's toilets? He can see that they are a man so the men's toilets is an appropriate place for them. What's the issue?

Posters on these threads say over and over and over again that the problem of trans women not feeling safe in men's spaces is one for men to solve. That men need to be more accepting of gender non conforming men in their spaces. But your husband can't do that? Why not?

I am challenging you on this. I have been trying to understand why you simply believe those male people who have declared they are not safe, when they are directly using it to leverage their way into using female spaces and there is never evidence presented.

There is no evidence ever presented that shows this is an issue. There are also assurances from other poster’s that many other male trans people using male toilets without an issue. I was told this by a poster with many trans friends just this month on MN. None of their friends were using female single sex spaces they told us. It was a non -issue.

Are you saying we should automatically believe these male people who make the declaration they are unsafe in male toilets? Shouldn’t male people then be organising campaigns to make male toilets safer for all male people? Why isn’t this happening if it is such an issue?

Or is it more misinformation being used as an emotional manipulation tool? And if so, are you comfortable continuing to spread that misinformation based on a gut feeling?

Sorry, ambiguity on my part.

"I'm happy to be challenged on it" = "I'm have no issue that you're calling me out on it. I think you make valid points".

Because he will not tolerate a man in a dress flirting around him and trying to come onto him while using the mens toilet. My husband was with our young nephew at the time . In my DH words " it was fucking disgusting " . Unpick that !

Please don't try and make out that my DH is the one with problem here !!!

Ah! Ok. Again, thanks for explaining that misunderstanding on my behalf.

“Other vulnerable male people continue to use the male toilets. Why are this group of male people more vulnerable and need special treatment?

The equivalency for male trans people is not that of female people. They are comparative to other vulnerable male people.“

@Helleofabore, all good points. I’m not suggesting there’s a direct equivalency between male trans & female people. But both (claim to) feel fear, & resent having this dismissed. We may choose to draw hypothetical comparisons with other groups of males we perceive to be equally vulnerable - ethnic minorities, the old, the disabled etc. - but it seems that they’re not claiming fear themselves.

Which, I recognise, may indeed support the argument that some male trans people, at least, are, whether consciously or not, claiming fear when they seek validation (if not, why reject third spaces?) Maybe the claim of fear is, itself, a kind of validation?

I just don’t want to discount that, in the infinite range of people now under the so-called trans umbrella, there may well be a genuinely fearful minority, whose fear - however accurate or misplaced - is valid & as an strong emotion, defining their lives & affecting their freedom of movement, as our own.

This isn’t to say this minority should have access to our spaces. Nor is it to say that a Hard No isn’t the way forward - I think it has to be.

I just, in reading posts that focus on the more cynical & ruthless of our wannabe interlopers, don’t want to deny the existence (gah, aware of the shudderingly uncomfortable echo of the militant TRA in there, but too tired to re-phrase!) of another group who are genuinely struggling. They may fall under the umbrella of a movement women are experiencing as oppressive, but is that umbrella protecting them? Not so much, I suspect.

All good 👍😁

Erm, OK.

If that is happening then the issue is sexual harassment, not men in dresses. Would he ban gay men from men's toilets?

Most trans women are, as I understand it, heterosexual.

So you want to validate their argument of fear while denying their access to female single sex spaces? When there is no evidence that the fear is based on reality because to not validate their fear could be said to be denying their existence?

Whereas the arguments from
female people reflect our complex toilet uses, in and outside the locked door of a cubicle, and the very real needs based on evidence and history. In fact, on the very premise of segregation of toilets in the very first place.

I would really hope that if there were real issues, that groups would actively provide campaigns and solutions for this. Because there ARE male trans people using male toilets. If there is this issue, it needs to be addressed for those male trans people to remain safe! Safe while respecting the needs of female people and not using female single sex spaces.

ok. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and if giving those arguments validity by accepting them to whatever degree you accept them is what you need, go for it. I, personally, cannot handle the dissonance that this inconsistency causes me.

Oh FFS please stop making excuses for it .

The guy was fucking disgusting and it happens that's why we don't want them in womens spaces . And for the record my DH is a very gentle placid and tolerant man and we met at a theatre........ not in a piss soaked toilet !!

I'm not making excuses for anything.

Sexual harassment is obviously wrong no matter who is doing it.

But the first time you mentioned your husband feeling uncomfortable with a man in a dress in the men's toilets you didn't mention sexual harassment, just the dress.

If there are no third spaces available, which there generally aren't, a man in a dress should be using the men's toilets and other men should be OK with that.

My evidence is anecdotal - a conversation within the last week with someone who worked with someone in this position. I found it moving & it made me think. N+1 has been used to deny our fears before (although I recognise that, in our case, N already has a far greater statistical value than my single N of a friend’s experience many years ago!)

And my position isn’t inconsistent - unless there’s an inherent expectation that, in accepting that some trans people may experience real fear, I should seek to resolve this myself. (I think we’re all on the same page in agreeing that’s an unreasonable requirement we all reject!)

So, yes: I believe there are probably some trans people who are viscerally fearful about using the Men’s. And yes, I’d deny them entry to the Women’s. Women’s needs are more complex, their vulnerability infinitely greater, & their exclusion, if we don’t stand our ground, would be more absolute. It’s not down to us to martyr ourselves & each other to others’ needs.

I derive no “comfort” from thinking this way. None of this is comfortable.

(And the existence phrasing? That I apologise for wholeheartedly - I swear, I flinched typing it. Bloody awful phrase behind a litany of misogynist evils. Which awful phrasing is why I am going to bed now, belatedly!)

wiccan

Margot is correctly describing what happened. Not excusing it.

She is right. Your DH was sexually harassed. The issue doesn’t seem to be male trans people in the scenario you described, it is sexual harassment by another male person. Still completely unacceptable and very concerning.

I agree though, that lack of inhibition you describe in that sexual harasser is scary and forms part of the reason why those male people should be no where near female single sex spaces. A fully grown male acting with so little respect towards another male is bad enough but towards a female who is less powerful to fend off any attack if that harasser decided to make it physical too is why safeguarding is needed.

Trans women feel vulnerable sharing toilets with male people, so they want to use the ladies’ loos.

Women feel vulnerable sharing toilets with male people, so they don’t want trans women to use the ladies’ loos.

Who do we prioritise? The women, who have nowhere else to turn if their single-sex facilities become mixed-sex? Or do we prioritise the trans women, who are already entitled to use the men’s facilities (and in some areas, additional mixed-sex facilities)?. If they use the ladies’ too, that’s up to three flipping facilities! Meanwhile, women are left with sod all!

My answer is: we prioritise the women, of course. Women’s facilities are for adult human females and it is not up to women to help male people feel more safe. That’s up to men. While I have some sympathy in that some TW may be experiencing genuine fear, it is really selfish of them to make women feel afraid and uncomfortable. They are effectively getting rid of their fear by passing it on to women. How is that remotely fair?

And it’s not just women’s feelings of safety they’re destroying - it’s also dignity and privacy. Would you want to change a tampon if you saw a TW in the toilets, knowing they could hear you rustling the wrapper and closing the sanitary bin? No thanks, it’s embarrassing enough when it’s just women around.

TLDR: I want TW to be safe, I don’t want them to be attacked. I want them to have third spaces where possible and failing that, to use the men’s facilities, because I’m afraid the ladies’ is already taken.

I'm not obligated to give all full details of my life because you some how feel entitled to it. I will do it when I feel comfortable . My husband was ok with it until the guy felt sexualy entitled to come onto my DH . My DH was in there to take a piss as it's a toilet And he had my 8 year old nephew with him . Nothing transphobic or homophobic but a fucking massive safeguarding issue with a predetor. Just to be clear if I was using a toilet and a women approached me in a sexual manner I would see it that way as well .

Yep, @CorruptedCauldron.

Now, resisting further browsing! 💤

Please dont make up a scenario you think happened . It was a trans women ok I saw her . You weren't there !!!!

I also described it as a guy because I don't believe men can be women .

No, they can't be women.

But it was the behaviour (the sexual harassment) that was the issue here, not the fact that the person was wearing a dress.

If there had been no sexual harassment and just a man in a dress, would your husband still have felt uncomfortable?

I don't agree with men identifying as women I dont want them in womens spaces and my husband feels the same .

If you could please stop with the pestering that would be great 👍

If you don't think they should be in women's spaces and your husband doesn't think they should be in men's spaces then where should they pee?

This whole board is full of women saying men in dresses should feel safe and comfortable peeing in men's toilets and men should make them feel welcome.