Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

not true.
We aren't undermining our claims that we need/want/are entitled to single sex toilets by saying that a trans woman (is a man) and should use single sex toilets that match their biological sex.

If they feel unsafe in there, they need to do what women do/did. Campaign for space for themselves, not take space from women.

and so your husband will send that man into our toilets? No.

How do you think women with daughters would be able to react to all that?

sorry, posted to early @Wiccan

I guess your position is 3rd spaces for for anyone who wants to use them and sex segregated spaces for men and women who don't?

I don’t think anyone’s really shifted from third spaces, with an assurance that there are toilets/changing room etc only for biological women (and small boys with female adult).

An ideal society would give men who present as women safety in the men’s. I’ve followed these boards for 7 years and it was already in full swing by then. In that time I’ve seen men attack, scold, assault, shame and insult women for not sharing. A lot. I have rarely seen men advocating for male acceptance. It’s as if even allies are washing their hands of transwomen. And I don’t believe all of them actually believe TWAW.

Men can make male toilets safer. Every pub or cafe with a rainbow or trans flag in the window should be making it clear there is no risk for tranwomen if they use male facilities.

Third spaces yes, but safe single sex spaces for all as well.

This, in spades. Women getting attacked, villified, threatened, doxed, arrested, and shamed for not shutting up and allowing men in, but ZERO campaigning for male acceptance in male toilets.

I had typed a post last night and I think I deleted it that I thought any campaign now for male toilet safety would be criticised for being phobic. That increasing awareness about male trans people using the male toilets would be either never progressed by fearful marketing directors or would heavily criticised once it was released.

Hence, it would have to exclude the mention of transitioned males. And would it receive pushback from other groups?

It would still be worth attempting.

However, I think the issue is certainly not one women have to organise so that male people who cannot respect our needs can stay out of female single sex spaces. And the rate of occurrence of violence needs to be established.

Or are those male trans people talking about other male people looking that them in general being something they are scared of. Because while unwanted gaze is uncomfortable, that is not violence. And the equivalent, is a female on female gaze which while maybe uncomfortable would not be something I am about to request a separate toilet for.

I had typed a post last night and I think I deleted it that I thought any campaign now for male toilet safety would be criticised for being phobic. That increasing awareness about male trans people using the male toilets would be either never progressed by fearful marketing directors or would heavily criticised once it was released.

yes, I think the mantra TWAW is so pervasive many places would not dare raise it.

But businesses cannot put their heads in the sand forever.

Recently I was at the gym, in the changing room. Now normally I see adult women in the changing room but there were 3 school girls in this time- I’d guess about 15? And I thought- that could be my girl in a few years. Going to the gym after school, before she comes home. Without me. And I’ve also sort of pushed that for her, I took her with me when she was small, she went to toddler sessions. I’ve bought her weight sets, taught her how to do push ups properly. I love strength training and I’ve tried to rub some of that off on her.

But what does she do in a gym changing room that has no cubicles, showers with doors like toilet cubicles (ie not self contained) if ANY bloke can be in there at the same time? Does she get changed under a towel? Will he?

Toilets bother me but from a personal point of view gym changing rooms concern me more.

We see threads on here where the general public- the middle ground, lovely Hayley Cropper, live and let live be kind types*- are finding this situation and they are not liking it.

Yet those who could help continue to tweet rainbows and trending hashtags and put their fingers firmly in their ears.

*me, once.

@Brefugee, I think you misunderstood my post.

I agree that “We aren't undermining our claims that we need/want/are entitled to single sex toilets by saying that a trans woman (is a man) and should use single sex toilets that match their biological sex.”

I agree that “If they feel unsafe in there, they need to do what women do/did. Campaign for space for themselves, not take space from women.“

I disagree with those posters claiming emphatically either that no transwomen feel authentic fear, or dismissing such fear as irrational. I think we should be open to the possibility that some feel this way.

This doesn’t mean I think there’s any onus on us to resolve this by accommodating them ourselves.

Ok.

I don’t however agree that questioning the argument being constantly pushed that these male people experience violence in the male toilet, or fear it, is undermining the arguments put forward by women and girls. which is what I was responding to in your post :

“And re: toilets, I worry that, in undermining Alpha’s professed concerns, we risk undermining our own arguments against being forced to share with men.”

The assertion that it is too dangerous for these male people to use the male toilets when there is no other option available, needs to be questioned and challenged for veracity. To allow it to continually repeated when it is not based on facts and rationality is harmful in my opinion.

If it is a falsehood being used for emotional leverage, that should be exposed. If it has validity, it needs to be addressed by groups and other male people, for the benefit of all groups of male people.

If it is a fear planted and perpetuated by some people with the intention to manipulate trans people to feel unsafe and allies to keep repeating it, this too needs to be addressed. Because that is cruel to keep that fear going.

The needs of girls and women are based on historical evidence, on current evidence and based on the needs that extend beyond a locked cubicle door.

It is also a matter of proportionality. If a female looks at another female and makes that female uncomfortable, we still need to all use the same toilet or changing room. There is not much option outside of this. They are there legitimately and they are a very low risk that they going to be violent or commit a sexual offence. This is not the case with a male person.

Therefore I don’t see us on this board challenging and questioning this issue, as being symmetrical to dismissing the concerns girls and women have as not happening which is the narrative of extreme TRAs. If you see my meaning.

While I advocate for third spaces, I still struggle a little with whether this could be addressed in a different way. In saying that, I also understand that it is a good solution for all and has merit and momentum. And won’t take significant time to get the message filtered through to all age groups etc. if that messaging even works.

But we obviously agree on the whole.

Yep.

Amazing, isn't it?

Defer to men at all times. Defer to the (vague, undocumented) threats of male violence. Defer to the men who say they cannot use men's spaces because of it. Defer to the men who say we are bigots if we protest. Defer to the men who threaten us in balaclavas, with smoke bombs, on social media.

Women are supposed to suck it all up, move over, shut up, and be kind.

Fuck that noise.

Sorry catiette, I see we crossed posts.

But some of my post may still be relevant.

As I’ve said upthread I used to go to 3 pubs where 2 men who presented as women also drank. They were always safe in the men’s.

to add to that I had a drunk guy get his cock out (exposure) to show me in one of those pubs.

So TW being safe has no bearing on whether women are safe. Plenty of men would not assault a TW/nb male but would assault a woman. Or a TM/nb female for that matter

I don’t see the necessary comparison.

A TW being safe in the men’s is no guarantee those men are safe around women.

An ideal society would give men who present as women safety in the men’s.

An ideal society would not have "men who present as women" in the first place, because there would be no concept of "presenting as a woman".

Neither would it have "women who present as women"

It would just have "men and women who present as people".

Also, toilets are a shibboleth. It's a very visible signal of dominance when a man physically enters a supposedly female only space, especially a private one. So it becomes a focal point for the various factions. But really, arguing about who is most at risk in which toilet is playing on the field the TRAs want to play on. Making it about who is physically vulnerable and who can legitimately be considered a risk is what gives TRAs the excuse to claim in bad faith that "GC people are saying all TW are perverts" and "Most vulnerable group must be made safe".

The real point is that TW are not women in the sense of the people and needs that all the various women-only provisions were created for, physical and non-physical. They don't just exist to mitigate physical risk, they exist to give us space and opportunities in a male-defined and male-favouring society. TW, while undoubtedly suffering their own disadvantages by not conforming to a social expectation of manhood, do not experience life as women do and should not be making any claim on these provisions based simply on their claim the word Woman means something different now.

Indeed it's abundantly clear that for many TW, the tolerance and understanding they expect for themselves certainly doesn't get extended by them to women's own fight for understanding, rather they are gleefully sizing on and endorsing sexist ideas about women.

All of what Rhinos said.

Yes, @Helleofabore, I think we fundamentally agree!

Spot on 👍👍👍👍

I agree with much said here.

On the surface, the toilets is the easiest issue to solve, but that fact a solution hasnt been settle on is telling. It means that TRA, who are powerful enough to insist governments change the definition of female and male and have gender neutral policies imposed onto institutions, havent campaign to either make male spaces trans friendly, or campaigned for separate spaces.

It also means that male presence in female spaces is felt and not welcome.

Its obvious that tra want single sex spaces to be gendered spaces, and the general population doesnt want this, despite the media, government and institutions campaigns.

So where is a realistical compromise? Can governments and TRA force the public into abandoning their need and want for single sex spaces?

I dont think a compromise or a meeting in the middle is needed. Its clear that tra need to work for another solution.

How the fuck did this become my problem ???? I don't want them in womens spaces my DH doesn't want them in womens spaces . I was just highlighting that trans women can be a problem in men's toilets too .

I also worry, as I think Rhinos may suggest above (sorry if I misunderstand) that, all empathy aside & from a purely tactical perspective, there’s something to be said for acknowledging the perceived vulnerability of a likely silent minority of genuinely dysphoric transsexuals.

We know there are other motivations behind the “feeling-unsafe-in-the-toilets” argument, some of them utterly unsavoury; the evidence is out there in spades. We also know understanding has been degraded by the complexities of gender as a dominant ideology, laying the groundwork for individuals to take advantage of the dissolution of prior social contracts. But in focusing on these issues to the point of denying the few who do need accommodations of some kind, do we risk doing an injustice to the few who are themselves truly suffering, & in so doing, risk adding fuel to the “you’re-unjustly-labelling-us-all-as-abusers” fire?

The problem, of course, is that this debate isn’t amenable to this degree of nuance - particularly not when you then add, “I recognise a minority of trans women genuinely feel unable to use the men’s - & I still absolutely believe they shouldn’t use the women’s!” (my perspective, for anyone still in any doubt!)

In a society demanding that we “be kind”, this is then used to argue how cruel we all are (as opposed to how bigoted we all are) - &, once again, we’re back to square one!

Basically, misogyny, & the kind of values Alpha kept highlighting, has done a real number on us in terms of this - all arguments lead to the same dismissal of our views.

(So I do understand the hardline, universal F-offs!)

Edited for clarity - what I’m saying is quite nuanced & I’m still a bit worried I’ll be misunderstood.

TLDR - some trans women may well need other accommodations; it’s not up to us to provide these; how we acknowledge & discuss this minority could affect how our own fears are received; this is bloody unfair & it shouldn’t be like this!

In spades . And also the hand maidens for attacking us when voice this !

I have 2 daughters and I myself have been raped and abused . You are picking in the wrong person .

From what you've said, it seems your DH was sexually harassed in the men's toilets by a male person in "women's" clothing.

Would your DH have objected to a transvestite or a male who identified as trans using the men's toilets if that person had just come in and used the toilets and not sexually harassed anyone?

I see where you're coming from, Catiette.

Unfortunately, men trying to get into women's spaces is not a group I have any sympathy for anymore.

If I didn't feel like I was using all of my energy to try and protect children and women from real, documented, statistically significant risks of sexual assault and rape, unevidenced and harmful medical treatment, and the imminent loss of all rights and protections in law, then perhaps I'd have more headspace for sympathy.

But it's a moot point. Too many men have used and abused women's empathy, sympathy and compassion, under the guise of 'feeling like a woman'.

Not only that, but they are almost invariably adopting stereotypical dress and behaviour that is actively insulting to women. (See the recent input from Alpha).

'Feel sorry for me while I continue to mock and belittle you' is just not doing it for me anymore.

Stop trying to make it that my husband is the problem here . I've explained the situation enough . It's fucking boring now !

Yep, I get that @ArabellaScott, I really do. I feel increasingly inclined that way myself, as a direct result of the appalling & eye-opening disregard for women in this debate. You could probably apply some law of physics here - the furious forces ranged against us are such that we feel forced to match them in their total lack of empathy in order to push back, whatever our prior inclinations. It’s upsetting & a bloody mess.