Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Everyone?
This is a thread about middle ground. There have been several/many people saying that Alpha was trolling, offensive, misogynistic or similar. When I commented on this thread, I was advised several times to read the AMA. So I did.
I came back with my thoughts - directly related to the middle ground - and I apologised in advance directly to Alpha because it will very possibly indeed appear like I'm psychoanalysing Alpha. However, I took a punt that (if read by Alpha) it will be received by Alpha in the good faith that I intended, given what has been covered in this thread and the AMA one.

Where as us women take a laa di daa approach to our genitals and safety .

Nope. Not getting what you think that these male people are more exposed ? You mean at urinals? Because I believe there are stalls in every male toilet. So why would a male have to display genitals?

If it is a male making a comment based on clothes, again, why would male trans people be any different from any other vulnerable group from being harassed in a male toilet? Vs say the man who lives nearby me who wears a long tunic, or a person who any male with a deep prejudice feels compelled to harass.

alpha fully supports misogynistic notions. Why would this make this person not misogynistic in your view?

Why do you believe alpha telling women to be kind and use the pronouns of Mulvaney, or to be kind and allow males into female single sex spaces is not a misogynistic act?

I don't mean displaying genitals no. Probably not explaining myself very well.
When I think about why many women feel more vulnerable (to men) in toilets than in other environments it's often stated that this is because we're partially undressed. Yes, we're in a cubicle but a male voice in the room at this point is unnerving.
I'm just imagining that a transwoman may also feel vulnerable in a cubicle, particularly if there are men outside the door who may think it's funny guess what's under the dress etc.
As I say, conjecture. I could be way off.

Not sure how you're qualified but that means nothing on here as you are not permitted by MN to give any professional advice. I and other posters are commenting on the implications of this shit storm and alphas misogyny and insults to biological women and Alpha has been blatant.

Why do you believe alpha telling women to be kind and use the pronouns of Mulvaney, or to be kind and allow males into female single sex spaces is not a misogynistic act?

I don't. I think it's unintended though and most likely related to neurodiverse processing.

But that is their choice! I as a women cannot take my women off as it's not a costume. They need their own toilets then they can campaign for them like biological women had to , but they are not coming in ours . This is not and never will be womens responsibility.

maybe you misunderstood my posts. Why are you singling this group of males out for a special mention from any other group of males who are often harassed and vulnerable in toilets?

You said “I would imagine that a transwoman may have more exposure to risk than someone who is disabled or is of a different race.”

You say they are particularly vulnerable? Why? A male with a prejudice against any other group will be a danger to any male from that group. Yet you believe based on what reason that they are at higher risk?

Just your gut feelings because some male people with motives to use the female toilet when they wish have said so? I really see no logic in your answers except an attempt to draw a false comparison with women being in a cubicle in a state of undress.

??? My qualifications are completely irrelevant and I'm not giving out any professional advice.

I'm simply contributing to the discussion with my thoughts, like everyone else. It's very clear that you don't like my contributions so please do feel free to scroll on by.

You seem to think that men's toilets are full of violent men who are just hanging about waiting for a victim.

What has led you to believe this?

In reality most of the men using them will be ordinary men like your husband/brother/dad. Do you think all of them would be sniggering like schoolboys in the toilets or waiting for someone who's a bit different to beat up or mock?

Surely most of them will just go in there, do what they need to and get out again. From what I know of men's toilets they're not the sort of places you'd want to spend any more time in than is absolutely necessary.

I can see what Bonfire Lady is saying. She may well be right that Alpha is an authentically vulnerable ND transwoman. It may be easy to forget in the current context that there are a minority of old-school transsexuals out there (whatever treatment they may or may not have undergone). I worry that the current movement is diluting their identity by subsuming them into genderism just as it is our own; that it could be creating an angry backlash against their progress just as we face this against our own.

I’m not saying the situations are equivalent, but if Alpha is in this position, & trying to engage in however flawed &, yes, unintentionally offensive, a way, they’re facing some real challenges & I worry for their well-being; and if Alpha is a troll, well, frankly, the same re. challenges & well-being, but with an emphatic (as opposed to empathic!) eye-roll!

Either way, the exchange exposes the flaws in the GI ideology & our own rationalism in the face of (professedly badly-worded) claims to the contrary - whether through Bonfire’s careful empathy, or firm Hard No-s!

I think no such thing.

No sorry you don't get to come on a thread (that many posters have contributed a lot to more than you ) and then start gatekeeping ! .

Look. The sort of man who polices other men with violence will find any excuse.

A TW will get specifically transphobic abuse but from the point of view of the person at the business end of a fist is that worse than my friend who gets abuse for being skinny with a squint and bad teeth, or my friend who got beat up for having the wrong accent, or my friend who got punched in the face because a friend of a friend thought he was taking the piss?

And re: toilets, I worry that, in undermining Alpha’s professed concerns, we risk undermining our own arguments against being forced to share with men.

Similar claims are launched at us all the time - you’re only in there a short while, no one sees you naked, most men in there with you will be lovely…

We all know the counter-arguments to these, & they’re good - for those of us who get it; the odd woman appears who apparently, quite simply, doesn’t, lucky/foolish thing that she is! And that doesn’t alter the validity of how we feel.

I think it’s important to extend the same respect to how Alpha claims to feel if we want others to respect how we feel ourselves, distinguishing clearly between this & where our real concerns lie: the proposed solution, of occasional use of the Ladies’. This is the issue.

Yep, a gut feel based on the things I hopefully articulated as intended and coming from the fact that transwomen do all seem to say that they would feel vulnerable in men's toilets. Including those who advocate for third spaces. I've never heard men say they felt vulnerable in the toilets because of their race/disability. I'm happy to be challenged on it though.

Well, you said this:

I'm just imagining that a transwoman may also feel vulnerable in a cubicle, particularly if there are men outside the door who may think it's funny guess what's under the dress etc.

And this:

I would suggest there is a very real danger of encountering intolerant men in the men's toilets who may decide to demonstrate their feelings with hateful words or violence or both.

And this:

I would imagine that transwomen are more vulnerable to men being violent (particularly where there is an intolerance motive) in toilets and changing rooms than in other spaces.

And this:

But as going to the toilet is about getting partially undressed in some way, I would imagine that a transwoman may have more exposure to risk than someone who is disabled or is of a different race. Difficult to say but they may be a specific target for someone's hate based on mockery or teasing about whether they are a "chick with a dick" or similar.

So I conclude that you do think that men's toilets are full of violent and intolerant men waiting for a victim, and men who are hanging around like schoolboys ready to mock anyone who is a bit different, and that men who identify as trans are more at risk than any other other men.

Ok. Thanks for explaining.

This is exactly the angle I was coming from. But you've put it much better than I did!

I'm afraid I no longer believe in the naivety of men. They are not in women's spaces by accident.

Any man who uses a woman's space knows very well the effect it will have on women.

They may even claim to be escaping exactly this effect themselves.

If a man says he is so afraid to be in with men that he simply has to use women's spaces, he is saying that knows what his presence means, he knows the effect it will have.

He also knows that he presents a risk to women in ways that other men do not and can not present to him.

A man pretending to be a woman presents a far greater risk to women than men present to a him. For various reasons.

If he is still there, in women's spaces, then he is knowingly causing harm to women. Either he doesn't care, or he is actively choosing to do so.

Has it not occurred to you that transwomen say this because they want special treatment? They either want access to the women's toilets or they want to be seen as special weak and helpless 'transwomen', just like real women who are weak and helpless in their view (see Alpha's opinions if you need more details on this). Other men are more likely to just put a brave face on it even if they genuinely do feel threatened, because they're men who don't want to look weak and helpless.

But I'm not convinced that men's toilets are the dens of violence that you portray them as. What are the statistics on male on male assault in men's toilets?

I agree , women are loudly stating we do not want men in our spaces because of fear , abuse , rape , violence , pedophelia , murder etc Any trans woman who keeps pushing for the use of our spaces hearing and knowing this......
does not give a fuck!

“If a man says he is so afraid to be in with men that he simply has to use women's spaces, he is saying that knows what his presence means, he knows the effect it will have.

He also knows that he presents a risk to women in ways that other men do not and can not present to him.

A man pretending to be a woman presents a far greater risk to women than men present to a him. For various reasons.”

This is so well put. This is what I have an issue with. Except that I’d add that there’s got to be a whole complex spectrum of degrees of awareness, from a visceral delight in scaring women at one end, to a degree of denial at the double standards being applied, that a fearful, troubled individual may barely consciously use to legitimise putting themselves first.

I’m not saying I excuse the latter, & I recognise the issues with even acknowledging the existence of this distinction - it’s the thin end of the be-kind wedge.

I also don’t know how to address it - in various threads, empathy, reason & outright fury all seem to fail.

Transwomen feel vulnerable when using men's toilets. My heart bleeds purple piss for them.

I have completely run out of fucks.