Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Also pls buy my book- “Why Carl(a) Jung Was A Woman Because of Her Interest In The I Ching (because men have no truck with that shit)” £8 Hardback.

I'm going to be potentially controversial here...

(For context, I haven't read the AMA post - so I haven't experienced any build up of annoyance before reading this specific comment)

I think there is some sense in what's said in this. GC women often say that it's easy to spot male tones and attitudes in transwomen. That's also based on stereotypes, surely.

And boys who get mocked for being "girly" when they are younger do often grow up to be gay. GC men and women often acknowledge this as a pattern too.

I don't believe that I have an inner gender. So without that foundation, I could never experience gender dysphoria. I could feel (and did as an adolescent girl) discomfort at my changing body but without a belief in gender identity, that's just body dysmorphia associated with puberty and my sex.
However, if someone does have a feeling of an innate gender, no matter what has led to this, body dysmorphia is highly likely to be experienced as gender dysphoria.

BUT. None of this means I want gender identity compelled as a truth in law, education and healthcare. Or transwomen identifying in to women's spaces, sports, lives etc. I'm not going to let anyone cross over my own personal boundaries, simply because they have a belief that I don't hold.

I would happily support a small number of additional single gender- neutral toilets that were equipped with their own sinks, accessible from the same corridors as the multi-cubicle same sex toilets, alongside making it unlawful for anyone to use a toilet that isn't commensurate with their sex. I do understand and sympathise with transwomen that they are going to be vulnerable in men's toilets. Anyone who feels uncomfortable with going in to the multi-cubicle toilets for their sex can use them. That includes anyone who feels they might be mistaken for being trans when they aren't. Or someone who is autistic who may struggle with noise. Anyone. We don't need to go overboard with lots of these toilets as most people will be fine in the standard ones.

I also don't give a shit that Malaga Airport transwomen don't want these spaces. Tough. They can use the men's, the gender-neutral toilet or wait until they get home. Their choice.

I added that bit separately in case it gets deleted. Hope not.

You should read it @BonfireLady it’s a masterclass in stereotypes.

For me, like everything, it's a matter of degree (very in the spirit of the mysteriously disappearing middle-ground OP).

There are differences in male-female behaviour. Much is nurture. A proportion may be nature - even if only in the form of the wariness necessary to navigating life in a smaller, weaker body. And given that we now know that behaviour (eg. meditation) can shape and change the brain, where does nature end and nurture begin anyway?!

AKA, it's bloody complex, so Handle With Care.

Incautious, unquestioning acceptance that generalisations-maketh-the-woman - not Handling With Care - lead to the erasure of what we DO know: that female bodies exist, that those inhabiting them have had a hell of a time establishing themselves as autonomous beings, and that they deserve a name of their own.

Instead, we have women being redefined as non-women precisely because, as women, they transgressed the limitations - patterns - imposed on them by others: on asserting that womanhood is More than those others would have them believe, they're redefined as non-women. Defining themselves as non-women. It's devastating.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/joan-of-arc-nonbinary-globe/671321/

https://4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

The discussion of stereotypes (women are nice, cuddly, kind etc. but are also scatter-brained) as the basis of thinking what a woman might be here reminded me that I had noticed this kind of thinking from some online mtf transitioners who clearly are not going to be fighting for feminist causes, because their ideas about what being a woman is are retrogressive and in many ways unrealistic (e.g. the idea of an older man transitioning into a teenage girl and so on). Fantasies, in other words.

Not much about wanting to play the female roles of doing most of the unpaid work at home after a full working day or being in charge of all kin contact and gifting and holiday organising or the care of the elderly etc.

I appreciate that the conversation has moved on but I hadn't answered this one...

In the past, Christianity was central in many of our laws (shops not opening on Sundays is an example) and way back in history it would have been punishable by death for not believing in God.

We're currently in a situation where people who believe that we have an inner gender identity are trying to or are succeeding in writing gender identity as a truth in to our laws. We've got the misgendering proposals from Labour as one of the most recent examples. But there are lots of other examples, including where the GRA creates some very odd inconsistencies with what is written in the Equality Act and the (now improved) EHRC guidelines.

I'm very curious and will definitely take a look.
I just wanted to add my response above (specific to that comment) without having seen it. I have a feeling it will annoy me.

Yep. Totally with you.
Also, it's quite funny to find ourselves on a really interesting thread where the OP has gone.
I think I'm remembering it correctly but that's exactly what happened in the "Good faith" thread series... Thread one was like that and I think it was you who started thread 2 @Catiette ?

This may explain the greater female interest in things like astrology and tarot, which men are likely to dismiss offhand as unscientific

Now come on, we’re being seriously trolled here. Right? That can be the only explanation. Otherwise it’s just really depressing that people have been encouraged to go to the pain and trouble of adopting different gender signifiers on the basis of long outdated stereotypes.

Altogether now!

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:

Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?
Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please.
Whenever you're with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Never.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Well, why can't a woman be like you?
One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then, there's one with slight defects.
One perhaps whose truthfulness you doubt a bit,
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!
Why can't a woman take after a man?
'Cause men are so friendly, good-natured and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner would you bellow?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

Pickering
Never.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be like us?
[dialog]
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps;
Ready to help you through any mishaps;
Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?
Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?

Why indeed.

I have to say, I can't understand the mentality of a trans woman who would choose to use the women's facilities, knowing it might cause distress, when there is a gender neutral one available for them. That thinking is entirely alien to me.

Hi, @BonfireLady! Yes, a bit of déjà vu. 😊

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.
How about refuges for trans, seperate from female (and male ones if they exist), ditto changing rooms? How about an open category for sport? And leaving lesbians their female only dating sites, and common all garden women their WI?
I mean, you're so close to be up for third toilets, how about a third space/category in all situations where women need their space?
Can it be done? Could it be done?

@AlphaTransWoman

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women....[and the following guff]

This post made me fucking furious.

Do you know why football fans or whoever are noisy and agressive and take over public spaces? Because society fucking enables them. It turns a blind eye. It says boys will be boys.

Do you know why men tend to be promoted earlier? Because society gives them more credit than women for the same outcome, which increases their confidence, which causes others to have confidence in them.

All those things you think are "man" things? That is fucking me. But I've had it metaphorically beaten out of me because ways that men behave are not considered acceptable in women. Even with that supposedly "man's" mind I could not succeed like a man because it wasn't acceptable coming from a mouth like mine.

All those things you think are "women" things? I do them. But not naturally. Built brick by fucking brick out of pure will because society and employers demanded them from me.

So don't you dare look at "women" and assume the ways they may be different to "men" today is some natural expression of gender, because for many of us those are the fucking chains we are locked into the day we are born.

Good to hear this, thank you.

I'll get shot/labelled naive for saying this (I still don't think I'm naive but never mind) but this is the kind of conversation that can be a game changer. If Scott Newgent can stand with Matt Walsh on the subject of the harms being done to children and young people, why can't I stand with a transwoman on this specific issue?

I'd love to see some momentum behind Miranda Yardley's campaign (or similar) for gender-neutral facilities. It's a modern answer to the reality of the world we live in.

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

oh @AlphaTransWoman
As an ex military woman who now works in IT i can categorically say that if you were sitting opposite me right now i would have to be restrained from punching you right in the throat.

We have TOLD you to stop with the demeaning, stupid and offensive generalisations. But you are like so many men who when hearing women being experts in something (in this case: being a woman) you just hear a buzzing in your ears or something.

You are an offensive and rude man.

Also women’s hands are colder so we don’t get hurt getting hot cakes out of the oven. FAcT!

Now that I think about it, I probably got my first in maths and computer science by batting my eyelashes at the professors.

Bonfire, I do feel you are being naïve. No one is going to change their minds when their entire existence is based on a misconception. This is just more “but enough about you, let’s talk about me”.

I've just read the AMA thread and Wow!!

Can I ask you a question please @AlphaTransWoman? Do you think you'd have this passionate need to BE a woman had you been born in the middle east?

I know that I personally am definitely lovely, kind, soft, and fluffy. Wafty and amorphous, all over and with bells on, from my viper's tongue to my long curling hag's toenails.

Can't speak for the rest of the wims in here, though, they're all irritatingly likely to disagree different from me.

One of the few things I will concede appears to feature quite strongly in males but I've yet to see in a woman, ever, is a desire to get off on other people's discomfort. Sexual gratification from non-consensual participation is almost entirely confined to the male sex, for whatever reason.