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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Anyone in the middle?

1000 replies

piesforever · 19/10/2023 22:32

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

OP posts:
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YouJustDoYou · 21/10/2023 15:49

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 14:41

This is just sad in a way, and anger invoking in others.

“I really want to be a woman because women are amazingly kind and loving people, and I love wearing women's clothing and thinking of myself as a woman. But maybe that's not enough.”

It really isn’t ‘enough’. Just like you fucking telling women to be kind to misogynists like Mulvaney and trying to shame us into compliance and submission. Like women need to fit YOUR stereotype of a woman with our ‘kindness’, like we should just be kind while a group of male people redefine what woman and girl is to suit themselves. You seem to believe that is ‘kind’. Fuck that.

“I don't have the biology. And maybe I don't have the emotional intelligence and empathy either. I think I proved that in spades in the AMA thread.”

The sad part of your statement is here. That somehow society encouraged you to think that being a woman was anything other than having a certain biology and then learning to navigate the world having that biology, including the fucking negative discrimination faced for having that biology and the expectation that women should act a particular way because of it.

I honestly cannot believe that you also believed that women’s awards and sexed based education and employment provisions were due to things like ‘low self esteem’. Who told you that? Was it a person calling themselves a feminist who also had no fucking idea of the female lived experience? Calling them ‘awards for mothers because not all women are discriminated against because of motherhood’? Fuck! This board is probably full of women like me who have been passed over for jobs and promotion even as very young women because ‘we might have children soon’!!! The obliviousness is clear.

If someone told you this in the past, they seem to have done you a great disservice!

“I really don't feel aligned with men (warriors, criminals, commanders, Donald Trump, etc). Maybe you are right and I should identify as a third kind of being? Just, like, a person?”

And this is also showing just how deeply held your own prejudices are. You define men based again on pure stereotypes. I know so many men that don’t fit any of these stereotypes - still men! Yes!!! They are just people! People with a particular body falling into the male sex category.

I really hope your time on this board has given you perspective. I noticed people advising you to seek more mental health support and I really encourage you to do so. But get out of the bubble of affirming only therapy if you actually want to understand yourself better.

Hear hear.

"The fact you could even whine about your hurt feelings, as if that’s any reason to knowingly and deliberately expose women and girls to even more risk of sexual assault than we already suffer, by allowing any men who fancy it to self identify as “women” and be accepted as such, is reflective of a truly monstrous level of narcissism"

And ego. I'd rather be 100% safe knowing only females are surrounding me in female-only spaces then running the risk of allowing any man in.

There are some wonderful men in this world but that doesn't mean we should be FORCED against our will to budge up and shut up and share with any and all unknown males who decided they should access to us just to appease feelings. The fact you cannot seem to understand that is so indicitive of your privilege.

Women and girls have been RAPED by transwomen and transgirls, for fucks sake, RAPED, when said trans have been allowed into a female space as a transwoman! For fucks sake, how can you not understand? We're afraid of rape and assault, and all you can whine about is your feelings. I mean, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 15:57

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 21/10/2023 15:30

Given the choice between you “feeling unsafe”, and actually keeping women and children safe, I’ll go for keeping women and children safe every single time.

You should be discriminated against - on the grounds that you’re male.
Just like every other male. Discriminated against in the sense that you should be excluded from spaces and services that are meant to be women only - because you’re not a woman. Not because you’re “trans”, whatever that means. But because you’re an adult human male, and that is the literal definition of a man.

The fact you could even whine about your hurt feelings, as if that’s any reason to knowingly and deliberately expose women and girls to even more risk of sexual assault than we already suffer, by allowing any men who fancy it to self identify as “women” and be accepted as such, is reflective of a truly monstrous level of narcissism.

Show quote history

Yes roaring. I, too, don’t believe it is just a case of being ‘self absorbed’. That is dismissing what is really underlying the motivations here.

AlphaTransWoman · 21/10/2023 15:58

MargotBamborough · 21/10/2023 13:01

I was actually thinking about this in the shower this morning.

Specifically in terms of early onset gender dysphoria in boys, which seems to manifest itself as boys playing with the "wrong" kind of toys and wanting to dress up in the "wrong" kind of clothes.

This is what Susie Green describes as being the earliest signs that her boy was actually a girl, and she says she thought he would probably grow up to be gay and she would have been OK with that but her husband wasn't.

There's so much to unpick there.

Firstly, the idea that the toys and clothes a young child likes might be a reliable indicator of their future sexuality. Now, I don't know whether this is true or not. Maybe little boys who like to play with dolls and dress up as princesses are more likely to become gay adults. Maybe they're not. Who knows.

I can see the logic for why we give little girls dolls to play with. Women give birth. Little girls will most likely grow up to be women who give birth to the next generation and so giving them dolls to play with is a way of preparing them for that role. So, as twisted as it is, there is a certain logic to the idea that dolls are for girls.

But if observe that your little boy likes to play with dolls and you assume that he is likely to be gay, what does that say about you? Is this just ingrained heteronormativity? Being attracted to male partners is a womanly thing, playing with dolls is a girly thing, so a boy who plays with dolls is doing a girly thing which is an indication that he will grow up to do womanly things such as being attracted to men? Huh? That's fucked up. A doll is just a doll.

Secondly, it isn't being attracted to men that makes you more likely to have to care for a baby as an adult. It's having a uterus.

Arguably, the children with the least need to train for future parenthood by playing with dolls are boys who will grow up to be gay men and children of either sex who will identify as trans and medically transition. Because these are the children least likely to ever become parents themselves.

So if you see your son playing with a doll and worry that it means he will grow up to be gay, firstly, that's homophobic, and secondly, aren't you rather ignoring the fact that boys who grow up to be straight are actually much more likely to become fathers and end up bottle feeding and changing real babies?

There's just no logic to these ideas. Wherever you choose to dig down into them, you find old fashioned homophobia and sexism, i.e. stereotypical gender roles for men and women, and gay = bad.

Edited
Show quote history

It's strange how heteronormativity and indeed homophobia has affected me a lot even though I'm attracted to women.

As a child, I was quite feminine, and I had a lot of people calling me "gay" or asking me if I was gay. Growing older, however, I realised that I was only attracted to women. Indeed I was frightened by men. So it was all a bit confusing for me.

It got worse when I went to an all boys school with a culture which I now recognise as homophobic and maybe slightly sexist. Notions of being "gay" or "womanly" were heavily intertwined and had a very negative loading. It's what you got called by the other kids (or even occasionally some teachers) if you were bad at sport, for example.

So I had quite a bad time there. Certainly it made me suppress my femininity and feel bad about it for a long time afterwards.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 16:22

“Certainly it made me suppress my femininity”

Certainly it made me suppress attributes I sexistly describe as ‘feminine’ and use now to call myself a ‘woman’.

Mate, if you honestly cannot see your own misogyny in your words across your posts , I really don’t think people on this board can say it any fucking louder.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 16:28

In fact alpha. I am reading your AMA and within the very first posts from you, it reads like a poster who has been on this board before saying almost word for word the same things. Have you name changed?

Wiccan · 21/10/2023 16:29

Agree it's misogyny across the board here on your posts. Alpha are you trying to be a woman so you won't be a gay man ??.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 16:36

The misogyny even in thinking that if they describe what might be considered positive or aspirational ‘stereotypes’ they consider makes them a woman or attracts them to women then that is ok. No misogyny there apparently.

There is a complete disconnect in thinking and a lack of mature and critical thinking.

RebelliousCow · 21/10/2023 16:46

MargotBamborough · 21/10/2023 15:29

@RebelliousCow I suspect what the OP means by a "middle ground" is "on the one hand I recognise that gender ideology is nonsense and trans activists are being completely unreasonable, but on the other hand it doesn't affect me that much and I want gender critical feminists to just put a sock in it and vote Labour".

Yes, a lot of people are very keen to vote Labour, and i can understand that, but as you suggest this is the most likely root of the demand for compromise solutions.

Catiette · 21/10/2023 17:33

I‘ve just returned from browsing on the other AMA thread, as I’m really keen to understand „the other side“, & do appreciate what you’re trying to do, Alpha.

But I just read the post in which you addressed what was clearly the most urgent question among readers, re: what it means to live as / be a woman, socially & psychologically.

People had asked this one far more often & emphatically than any other, & you’d appeared to delay addressing it, before answering in rather abstract ways & expressing surprise that it was difficult for readers to „get, conceptually“. But I was keen to see your eventual response. Then stopped walking in shock.

Men are more rational? Really?! The class that you admit yourself are more likely to attack others or wage war? Who are more likely to succumb to anger & act on violent impulses?

(Right now, this very minute as I type, a man‘s appeared behind me furiously yelling on his phone. I hear that far, FAR more in public than I do from women. And once again, I - rationally - quell my own frustration & fear, & quietly move away to keep myself safe).

Have you considered that, in the context of the above tendencies, it’s always been in patriarchal society’s interest to value male rage as a more acceptable, legitimate, „rational“ emotion, & the more conventionally female expressions of distress, eg. tears?, as irrational?

You‘re clearly unhappy as a man, & I truly wish you the very best & appreciate your efforts to explain your thinking & feeling.
But, for my part, I honestly found the „rational“ generalisation upsetting to read.

As a professional woman who’s calmly & professionally highlighted objectively important errors & issues to male colleagues only to be spoken to in tones more suited to a child, & who‘s recognised that this may be a coping mechanism on their part to attempt to suppress their own anger at my temerity, before carefully navigating the conversation back to safer - more rational - ground (modulating my tone to counter shy further suggestions of my own irrationality in the face of his own?) This stereotype has a very real impact on me.

I dislike generalising about more abstract patterns of male/female behaviour as a rule - statistically proven violence is irrefutable, but „rationality“ so more complex. But seeing that word „rational“ apparently used so unquestioningly - forgive me if I’ve misunderstood, I know you were referring to it as a societal expectation, but it also seemed to me you were accepting this, in your embrace of „womanhood“ as its antithesis - did trouble me.

WyrdyGrob · 21/10/2023 17:37

Can you see why giving children, and the wider public in general, that sort of message about transgender women might make us feel unsafe or lead to discrimination against us?

so. How are you going to deal with Karen White, Isla Bryson, Barbie Karashian and Katie Dolatowski. They are out there, pretending to be / dressing as women and then raping actual women and girls.

People (men) who claim a trans identity are out there giving the wider public the very real message that some men who dress as women are indeed very, very fucking dangerous. And YOU are here blaming pesky women for having the audacity to talk about it. As though it’s US doing the raping.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 17:50

Catiette · 21/10/2023 17:33

I‘ve just returned from browsing on the other AMA thread, as I’m really keen to understand „the other side“, & do appreciate what you’re trying to do, Alpha.

But I just read the post in which you addressed what was clearly the most urgent question among readers, re: what it means to live as / be a woman, socially & psychologically.

People had asked this one far more often & emphatically than any other, & you’d appeared to delay addressing it, before answering in rather abstract ways & expressing surprise that it was difficult for readers to „get, conceptually“. But I was keen to see your eventual response. Then stopped walking in shock.

Men are more rational? Really?! The class that you admit yourself are more likely to attack others or wage war? Who are more likely to succumb to anger & act on violent impulses?

(Right now, this very minute as I type, a man‘s appeared behind me furiously yelling on his phone. I hear that far, FAR more in public than I do from women. And once again, I - rationally - quell my own frustration & fear, & quietly move away to keep myself safe).

Have you considered that, in the context of the above tendencies, it’s always been in patriarchal society’s interest to value male rage as a more acceptable, legitimate, „rational“ emotion, & the more conventionally female expressions of distress, eg. tears?, as irrational?

You‘re clearly unhappy as a man, & I truly wish you the very best & appreciate your efforts to explain your thinking & feeling.
But, for my part, I honestly found the „rational“ generalisation upsetting to read.

As a professional woman who’s calmly & professionally highlighted objectively important errors & issues to male colleagues only to be spoken to in tones more suited to a child, & who‘s recognised that this may be a coping mechanism on their part to attempt to suppress their own anger at my temerity, before carefully navigating the conversation back to safer - more rational - ground (modulating my tone to counter shy further suggestions of my own irrationality in the face of his own?) This stereotype has a very real impact on me.

I dislike generalising about more abstract patterns of male/female behaviour as a rule - statistically proven violence is irrefutable, but „rationality“ so more complex. But seeing that word „rational“ apparently used so unquestioningly - forgive me if I’ve misunderstood, I know you were referring to it as a societal expectation, but it also seemed to me you were accepting this, in your embrace of „womanhood“ as its antithesis - did trouble me.

Edited

I too am reading the AMA thread and I find the lack of coherence quite clear.

now reading your post catiette I am thinking this may be performative or it may be an escape from the ‘demands of male rationality’ if you get me meaning. When you define your entire existence by stereotypes of the sexes, how can you ever understand others lived experiences and women’s horror at being forcibly redefined.

There is so much performative thinking there. Such as ‘as a woman I am scared of transphobic men hurting me in the toilet, yet I will insist on using female toilets when I have no choice (again, we had at least one poster say this to us this year). When there is actually no evidence at all of male people attacking male trans people in the UK in the toilet. And indeed there are male trans people using male toilets, in dresses and wearing male up, who tell us there are no issues.

It also smacks on narcissism because it lacks any empathy, which we were assured was there, for female people’s needs of the toilet. I mentioned this on another thread and there was never any reply or even acknowledgment. No!!! Fuck that. Female people are NOT using the toilet to just pee. It is complete fuckwittery based on ignorance or dishonesty to even suggest this. So, for this male individual’s special safety, girls and women will be made to feel unsafe. And a group of girls and women will have their religious needs ignored so they self exclude. But apparently, this is a person who is fully immersed in believing they are just like other women.

um no fucking way!

And this entire scenario fails at the next hurdle, should ALL vulnerable male people then be allowed to use the female toilet? The lack of critical thinking here is so remarkable but not uncommon.

Froodwithatowel · 21/10/2023 19:07

Alpha - oh what a give away - you're not responding to any in depth thoughts or dicussions, so I'll keep it short.

No, I don't feel sorry for you and won't be lavishing sympathy, in the same way you feel no responsibility to go thinking of/caring about anyone else in this situation.

Linked to which: this may come as a shock, but not everything is all about you.

Left handed posting possibly going on here.

CorruptedCauldron · 21/10/2023 19:15

I think it’s great that Alpha shied away from toxic masculinity and harmful stereotypes about how men are supposed to behave. But what a pity that in transitioning, Alpha is perpetuating equally harmful stereotypes about women being soft, submissive and gentle etc. That, I’m afraid, is sexism.

Women are all different, they are not a hive mind. The only thing women have in common is their experience of being born with female biology. Personalities, hobbies, temperament, interests and behaviours vary wildly from woman to woman because women are human beings.

Alpha, it is a great shame that the people around you made you feel that you couldn’t live your best life and be yourself as a boy. But in order to defeat the patriarchy, we need more men to turn their backs on toxic masculinity and call it out for what it is. Those men should be free to remain as gender non-conforming men, showing there’s another way forward.

Is it really 25 years since David Beckham caused a media frenzy when he wore a sarong? Seems we were more progressive back then!

YouJustDoYou · 21/10/2023 19:19

The misogynistic stereotypes in that awful AMA were just rage-inducing.

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 19:21

CorruptedCauldron · 21/10/2023 19:15

I think it’s great that Alpha shied away from toxic masculinity and harmful stereotypes about how men are supposed to behave. But what a pity that in transitioning, Alpha is perpetuating equally harmful stereotypes about women being soft, submissive and gentle etc. That, I’m afraid, is sexism.

Women are all different, they are not a hive mind. The only thing women have in common is their experience of being born with female biology. Personalities, hobbies, temperament, interests and behaviours vary wildly from woman to woman because women are human beings.

Alpha, it is a great shame that the people around you made you feel that you couldn’t live your best life and be yourself as a boy. But in order to defeat the patriarchy, we need more men to turn their backs on toxic masculinity and call it out for what it is. Those men should be free to remain as gender non-conforming men, showing there’s another way forward.

Is it really 25 years since David Beckham caused a media frenzy when he wore a sarong? Seems we were more progressive back then!

Don't forget Billy Elliot from the heady days of two decades ago.
David Bowie to Beckham in a sarong to Billy Elliot to same sex marriage just a decade ago.
You'd look at that and say society really was getting it right.
And in the space of the next ten years...

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 19:28

YouJustDoYou · 21/10/2023 19:19

The misogynistic stereotypes in that awful AMA were just rage-inducing.

Blinding, wasn’t it. It can’t be a lack of awareness, I think it has to be determination to only centre oneself and every female surrounding this male seems to enabled.

And No! Fuck no! A therapist suggesting that a male is really a woman and that male desperate to work out why they are different and desperate to not be a ‘man’ feels euphoric at the possibility… therefore it ‘must be true!’

Froodwithatowel · 21/10/2023 19:31

I'm afraid I'm also not sorry that it is sad and inconvenient to some male people to safeguard children and respect women.

Fgs.

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 19:32

Can I salute all the women on MN. Every week, sometimes every day, threads go down the rabbit hole when TRAs either attempt to slice the English language and established scientific concepts like an onion, or they post like a petulant passive aggressive teenager (boy, obviously, lol), or here there are plaintive pleas to be oh so understanding because the male just has feelz to work out.

There would be less than 1% of the understanding on a male dominated forum if men's prospects and security were at risk from interlopers.

So, ad infinitum, women here just thrash out the basics of life, with men just refusing to accept reality, and if I might say, torturing women back in response.

It's just a game at this point for these men, they will not be told, because, ergo, they're men.

Indeed the dynamic between women ever patient to keep hammering the arguments out and men who just won't take no for an answer, is so instructive.

AlphaTransWoman · 21/10/2023 19:36

Catiette · 21/10/2023 17:33

I‘ve just returned from browsing on the other AMA thread, as I’m really keen to understand „the other side“, & do appreciate what you’re trying to do, Alpha.

But I just read the post in which you addressed what was clearly the most urgent question among readers, re: what it means to live as / be a woman, socially & psychologically.

People had asked this one far more often & emphatically than any other, & you’d appeared to delay addressing it, before answering in rather abstract ways & expressing surprise that it was difficult for readers to „get, conceptually“. But I was keen to see your eventual response. Then stopped walking in shock.

Men are more rational? Really?! The class that you admit yourself are more likely to attack others or wage war? Who are more likely to succumb to anger & act on violent impulses?

(Right now, this very minute as I type, a man‘s appeared behind me furiously yelling on his phone. I hear that far, FAR more in public than I do from women. And once again, I - rationally - quell my own frustration & fear, & quietly move away to keep myself safe).

Have you considered that, in the context of the above tendencies, it’s always been in patriarchal society’s interest to value male rage as a more acceptable, legitimate, „rational“ emotion, & the more conventionally female expressions of distress, eg. tears?, as irrational?

You‘re clearly unhappy as a man, & I truly wish you the very best & appreciate your efforts to explain your thinking & feeling.
But, for my part, I honestly found the „rational“ generalisation upsetting to read.

As a professional woman who’s calmly & professionally highlighted objectively important errors & issues to male colleagues only to be spoken to in tones more suited to a child, & who‘s recognised that this may be a coping mechanism on their part to attempt to suppress their own anger at my temerity, before carefully navigating the conversation back to safer - more rational - ground (modulating my tone to counter shy further suggestions of my own irrationality in the face of his own?) This stereotype has a very real impact on me.

I dislike generalising about more abstract patterns of male/female behaviour as a rule - statistically proven violence is irrefutable, but „rationality“ so more complex. But seeing that word „rational“ apparently used so unquestioningly - forgive me if I’ve misunderstood, I know you were referring to it as a societal expectation, but it also seemed to me you were accepting this, in your embrace of „womanhood“ as its antithesis - did trouble me.

Edited

Thank you for your post and for reading through the AMA.

I think I should have expressed myself a lot more carefully when using the term "rational" as a male characteristic. I am not suggesting that men have better cognitive or reasoning skills, but I appreciate it could have been read that way and apologise for any offence this caused to anybody.

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

Women tend to be more flexible and open minded in their approach, perhaps less hasty to judgement. This may explain the greater female interest in things like astrology and tarot, which men are likely to dismiss offhand as unscientific. It also explains why some men who do have religious beliefs can be fanatical and intolerant while women are more likely to take a "live and let live" approach.

I've been thinking a lot about the greater male tendency towards violence. I don't think this is driven by anger as such, as both men and women can experience this. The problem is aggression, which is an extreme form of the greater competitive tendency I identified in males. Men are likely to see other people as enemies who have to be defeated so they can win.

Some men also actually enjoy violence and confrontation, which women hardly ever do. I sometimes get transphobic abuse from men trying to provoke some sort of reaction. Never from women.

To give you another example, a few weeks ago I saw an all male group of football fans at a train station. They were noisy and belligerent, carrying flags and trying to dominate their environment. It was almost as though they were enjoying the feeling of being in some kind of army, but without the risk. Not all football fans are like this, though I notice the well behaved, friendlier groups tend to include at least one or two women.

I realise I might be undermining myself a bit here, as I tend towards the rigid male pattern of thinking about things. But I really find male aggression to be a repellent thing; its not something I want to be part of or identify with.

AlisonDonut · 21/10/2023 19:40

It's just a game at this point for these men, they will not be told, because, ergo, they're men.

It IS a game for them.

Whereas for us, it could be life or death.

That's the basic problem. And they neither care to understand or give one shiny shit.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2023 19:41

AlphaTransWoman · 21/10/2023 19:36

Thank you for your post and for reading through the AMA.

I think I should have expressed myself a lot more carefully when using the term "rational" as a male characteristic. I am not suggesting that men have better cognitive or reasoning skills, but I appreciate it could have been read that way and apologise for any offence this caused to anybody.

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

Women tend to be more flexible and open minded in their approach, perhaps less hasty to judgement. This may explain the greater female interest in things like astrology and tarot, which men are likely to dismiss offhand as unscientific. It also explains why some men who do have religious beliefs can be fanatical and intolerant while women are more likely to take a "live and let live" approach.

I've been thinking a lot about the greater male tendency towards violence. I don't think this is driven by anger as such, as both men and women can experience this. The problem is aggression, which is an extreme form of the greater competitive tendency I identified in males. Men are likely to see other people as enemies who have to be defeated so they can win.

Some men also actually enjoy violence and confrontation, which women hardly ever do. I sometimes get transphobic abuse from men trying to provoke some sort of reaction. Never from women.

To give you another example, a few weeks ago I saw an all male group of football fans at a train station. They were noisy and belligerent, carrying flags and trying to dominate their environment. It was almost as though they were enjoying the feeling of being in some kind of army, but without the risk. Not all football fans are like this, though I notice the well behaved, friendlier groups tend to include at least one or two women.

I realise I might be undermining myself a bit here, as I tend towards the rigid male pattern of thinking about things. But I really find male aggression to be a repellent thing; its not something I want to be part of or identify with.

Show quote history

Just stop!! Stop! No! You are talking about stereotypes that YOU are desperate to cling to that fit YOUR needs.

Stop trying to make women fit your fucked up stereotypes! Just stop!

DeanElderberry · 21/10/2023 19:45

Testosterone has an effect on behavior, but when it comes to football fans, a lot of that is down to the encouragement of national stereotypes in some sports. Many sports have fans that behave with civility. Some countries put a premium on fans behaving well, particularly abroad, and lo! the fans behave well despite being testosterone-sodden males.

Anyway, I'm not wasting my precious life reading any nonsense about 'women's clothes' or the guff we had earlier in the week about hair length.

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 19:47

AlphaTransWoman · 21/10/2023 19:36

Thank you for your post and for reading through the AMA.

I think I should have expressed myself a lot more carefully when using the term "rational" as a male characteristic. I am not suggesting that men have better cognitive or reasoning skills, but I appreciate it could have been read that way and apologise for any offence this caused to anybody.

What I'm getting at is that I believe men tend to think in a more concrete and binary manner than women. This is no bad thing and is very useful when programming a computer or making quick decisions during a battle (say).

Women tend to be more flexible and open minded in their approach, perhaps less hasty to judgement. This may explain the greater female interest in things like astrology and tarot, which men are likely to dismiss offhand as unscientific. It also explains why some men who do have religious beliefs can be fanatical and intolerant while women are more likely to take a "live and let live" approach.

I've been thinking a lot about the greater male tendency towards violence. I don't think this is driven by anger as such, as both men and women can experience this. The problem is aggression, which is an extreme form of the greater competitive tendency I identified in males. Men are likely to see other people as enemies who have to be defeated so they can win.

Some men also actually enjoy violence and confrontation, which women hardly ever do. I sometimes get transphobic abuse from men trying to provoke some sort of reaction. Never from women.

To give you another example, a few weeks ago I saw an all male group of football fans at a train station. They were noisy and belligerent, carrying flags and trying to dominate their environment. It was almost as though they were enjoying the feeling of being in some kind of army, but without the risk. Not all football fans are like this, though I notice the well behaved, friendlier groups tend to include at least one or two women.

I realise I might be undermining myself a bit here, as I tend towards the rigid male pattern of thinking about things. But I really find male aggression to be a repellent thing; its not something I want to be part of or identify with.

Show quote history

Your coopting of women's spaces is by definition aggressive. You might not perceive it that way, but the truth trumps feelings.
Andrew Tate also doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. Truth trumps feelings.

Try thinking about the truth once in a while instead of triangulating to an outcome that you feel comfortable about while every woman that meets you in an inappropriate place has the very opposite experience.

ApocalipstickNow · 21/10/2023 20:10

Look, there’s only one way to be a woman and that’s to be made in a pink pot out of sugar, spice and everything nice* but if you’re made in a blue pot out of slugs and snails there’s no hope really. You’re doomed to be a warmonger forever. IT’S sCiOncE!

*and some chemical x

Catiette · 21/10/2023 20:14

Thanks for your thoughts, Alpha. I did find the "tendency to be more rational" reference quite upsetting for a minute, so appreciate your comments.

I would agree with others that, while your response is clearly aiming to be measured & courteous, it belies a preoccupation with generalisations and trends that, from our perspective, are frustrating at best - and actively damaging at worst.

I think I can imagine why someone with your experience may find such generalisations and trends interesting and reassuring, but (while uncomfortably conscious of the arrogance of saying this to a remote stranger as a non-medic), I do wonder if, as other posters have suggested, stepping back and valuing yourself more on your own terms (and us on ours) may be a healthy step forward.

We don't begin to understand the human body and brain yet - not even close! I know a fair number of medics, & some are disturbingly keen to emphasise that medicine is still far more process-of-elimination guesswork than patients would like to think, while psychology as we understand it is a relatively young field. People are complex. In part because of this, as humans, we seek patterns, especially when we need a sense of order and control, imposing them on the world according to science, in response to emotion or out of sheer arbitrary bloody-mindedness for a multitude of reasons - this is unavoidable.

Almost always, these patterns relate to (are the product of / expose / maintain) power structures, whether in the form of Latinate names for plants (forever embedding Roman colonisation in our natural world, & bringing unruly nature under human control) or gendered stereotypes.

As such, an over-reliance on these patterns, which are impossibly complex and sometimes entirely artificial, doesn't feel like the firm foundation for navigating a difficult world. For us as women, the patterns you're citing have been used to oppress us for centuries - actively constructed for that purpose in some cases. We've made immeasurable progress in breaking down the more artificial and damaging in recent decades, and the current trend is reincarnating them in a way we find deeply concerning.

Your generalisations assuage your distress - but they can trigger (much as I hate to use another over-used & degraded word) ours.

As such, there's no easy answer, but acknowledging that generalisations aren't always remotely founded in reality, or as helpful as they may appear to be, may be a start.

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